Steve Boecker 0:00

We'll get there, and I I think the advantage I think the advantage kids gonna do it and um and and I believe them and so what that means is this is the Time on Wing Podcast.

Courtney Miller 0:19

Welcome back. I'm Courtney Miller with Visual Approach Analytics with me again, Garrick Deshabon, and he is with Collateral Verifications. Garrick, who are we talking to today?

Gueric Dechavanne 0:30

Hello, Courtney of Visual Approach Analytics, who you are with. So today we have the pleasure of talking to Mr. Steve Becker. Steve is currently SVP of marketing at uh HCAM Aviation, and he's been in that role for a couple months, but uh before that, he was uh senior sales at for Delta Tech Ops, you know, a little uh little MRO there. Uh prior to that he was VP Sales for AirSale, um he was also director of sales for global leasing at IAE, um little engine manufacturer there. Prior to that, General Aviation, I'm sorry, general manager and a bunch of other roles at Pratt and Whitney. Uh between Pratt and IE, he was there for quite some time, so he's an engine guy inside and out. Um director for Pemco World Air Services, uh he was also captain for the US Army Reserve. Uh he spent some time as a supervisor at FedEx, and also he's a system operation manager, amongst other things, at Presidential Airways. He's got his BS in uh business administration from the Citadel, and also an MS in Aviation Management Operations from Ember Aeronautic University. So he's a uh ERAW uh alum just like us. So Steve, this is your time on away.

Courtney Miller 1:41

Just a quick intermission to pay the bills, and then we'll get you back to the podcast. You've probably heard of Visual Approach Analytics. Here's what we do. Visual Approach delivers contrarian data analysis on the commercial aviation industry. Subscribers can start with our industry analysis and weekly insights, and then upgrade to access our downloadable charts and visualize market trends. And even white label our charts in your own branding. If you need a white paper, a custom presentation with novel contrarian insights for your investors, or your board members, or your boss. Yeah, we do that. Our objective is not to be the thought leaders in aviation. Our objective is to give you the tools to be one. Visual approach.io. Check us out.

Gueric Dechavanne 2:19

Okay.

Courtney Miller 2:20

Back to the show.

Gueric Dechavanne 2:21

Steve, thank you very much for being on the show with us today.

Steve Boecker 2:24

Uh thanks, uh uh Garrick and Courtney both for having me on. I really appreciate it. It's uh quite an honor to be asked to be on, and people have been on here before me, so it's uh it's pretty special, so thank you for that. Um gosh, it is a what's the special special. I think he did that. I'm definitely special. What's the Paul McCartney song, The Long and Winding Road? Well, it is definitely it has definitely been a long and winding road, but it's been um I've had um the benefit and fortune to be to have to touch many facets of the industry where a lot of people touch on one or two or three points. I've been all over the I've been all over the map, and it most of it wasn't planned. It sort of some of it some of it was happenstance, some of it was planned. Um let's just go back. So as a kid, um I was always geeked out, even as a little kid. I mean like a like a little kid, like five, six-year-old kid. Um going back to um went to the air went to the Oakland air airport um as a six-year-old kid in kindergarten, and we toured it 737-200, not like I remember that, like it was yesterday in Air California. And that and to for me, that was the beginning. It was the head start head start program. And um, and and so for me, that was the beginning, and it was just downhill from there. And it was just enthralled with aircraft and aviation, and um, and so that was always even as a kid, so I was always reading books as a kid. I started reading, first books I read were aviation books. Uh paper picture books and those kinds of things. And then um as time passed, I just was always very interested in it. And then as I got older, um, you know, in high school picture books, right? I went back to picture books. I never got away from picture books. I still have to. I still do. Um yeah. And and uh and and and so it was just um uh I'm gonna have a sh uh one of my several sh shout-outs for for this guy that I grew up with was um actually ended up being chief pilot for Frontier um and head of flight ops for Jet Blue, Jim Sullivan. And Jim Sullivan and I grew up together, went grew up same neighborhood, went to high school together, geeked out on aviation together, and he did his path and I did mine, but we we were always talking about what we were gonna do when we grew up. And and so for me, it became very apparent I wanted to be in aviation. Um I look when it came to look at colleges, um, I looked at Embry Riddle really hard. I really wanted to go there. And my dad was having no part of it, which is interesting. Wasn't had nothing to do with the school, had everything to do with me. He didn't think that I was disciplined enough. Um he said you're gonna. Yeah. He said, you're gonna be you're gonna end up being an airport bum and you'll never graduate. Well, thank you, Dad. Um he was halfway. I was like, well, partially. Um you graduated. But I was very focused on going in the military. And I, you know, Air Force ROTC, I was laser focused. And so I was gonna go Air Force ROTC at Denver Riddle, and Dad came home one day with a brochure from the Citadel. And I'm like, hmm? What is this? And so um I looked at it, I went down as a weekend visitor, and I actually really enjoyed it. I actually, the structured environment, believe it or not, I know it's gonna sound crazy. Um but um I ended up going to the Citadel, and uh was a huge part of my career going forward. And so dad goes, you can go to Embry Riddle after the Citadel. And so there was my goal was to go into the Air Force after the Citadel. Um, on path, on track, on glide slope, ready to go. Um, and then we had a curveball. I had my pre-commissioning physical of beginning of my junior year, and ROTC department called and said, Your eyes are not good enough to be pilot. You're only you're not even good enough to be a navigator. And I'm like, because I knew they weren't gonna be good enough to be pilot, and I was I was I was gonna go to Mathor Air Force Base, I was gonna be a navigator, I had it all planned out. And what ended up happening is um they called me in and they said, You're a business major with okay grades, um, it's not gonna happen. You're you're not gonna you're not gonna fly. Um, but you can be a missile officer. And I and I thought about that and I was like, wait a minute, you know, um mine out North Dakota, um, 50 degrees below zero, 500 feet beneath the ground. Um a lot a lot of my classmates did it. Um I chose not to. There were only several paths to Air Air Force ROTC at the time, pilot, um, navigator, tech, non-tech, and and um, and and and and and and that was basically the path, and there was no path for me, um other than to be a missile officer. So I went across the hall and talked to Army, and I wanted to be going to the transportation corps, because that was my path B. And it was late. Um, this was the Reagan era, that was competitive. Um, they're like, nope, you're gonna get combat arms, you're gonna be infantry or field artillery, and I really wanted to be aviation. It was a brand new branch of the army, then you only had to be a pilot though to get branched to aviation as a commissioned officer. Long story short is I went back to the room, I was pretty devastated. Um sergeant called me back and she said, Look, I saw you were pretty devastated. Here's the deal: you're guaranteed your branch if you go reserve. And I said, Well, I'm gonna go active duty. She goes, Well, you're not gonna get your branch that you want, you're gonna get what's left. And so I said, Okay. So we took a wicked turn to the right, applied for my master's program at Embry Riddle, um, got branch transportation, um, got my commission in the summer of 1984 from the Citadel, and then um went on to officer basic course at Fort Eustace, ended up doing some super cool stuff as a transportation corps officer, absolutely fantastic, trained in all types of transportation, air, highway, rail, and my specialty um was air mobility. I did a lot of interface with the Air Force, did some training at Charleston Air Force Base, um, and really enjoyed it, loved it, um, really liked it. And then I started my master's program. And I was in a reserve unit in Orlando and went on from there. And then um and so got my master's degree, and then it was time to decide what to do. It was at um airline deregulation. Um, I was competing for jobs with the fired Reagan PAT code controllers. So all the all all the PAT code guys that had been fired um because they walked off because they struck, um, they were all much older than me, but they were scrambling for jobs as I was. Um, but anyway, uh, so got my master's degree, um, got my pilot's license while I was getting my master's degree, really glad I did that. Um, realized piloting for me was awesome, but I didn't want to make it a career because I was that was a choice I was gonna make if I wanted to you know continuing further on that. And I chose not to. I liked it as fun, but not as a job. Ended up getting a number of interviews, uh a slew of interviews, and um a couple of offers came through. Um in my infinite wisdom, ironically, I ended up choosing the one that was gonna pay the least with um the least amount of runway. My father was gonna kill me. Um, and it ended up being I got offers from uh New York Air, I got offers from Southwest, Eastern, and Presidential Airways. Presidential was a startup out of Dulles, and um my philosophy was I'll go with a startup. And I was I was a part-time baggage handler. And and I thought, you know, if I'm gonna go up through the flagpole, I'll start there. And I started on the ramp. And um here I am with six years of college as a commissioned officer throwing bags at Dulles Airport. I was not really popular on the home front. I really I was not and and but I in my I was I was very focused. I said, if I'm gonna know this business, then I need to know it from the ground up. And I was I was adamant. And I wasn't, I ended up not I've been wrong many times in my life, that was not one of them. Um I I uh ascended fair fairly quickly uh within Presidential to various jobs. I ended up doing, I was a ramp supervisor, I was a I was a gate agent, I was an operations agent. I loved operations, absolutely loved it, and I got to do some super cool stuff. Um Presidential had a contract with Club Med in Miami, and I would go down on the weekends. Um they had a lot of problems on the ramp. The ramp in Miami at that time period was rough stuff. I mean, when I say rough stuff, I mean you come in one day and somebody, another air airline to remain nameless has stolen your pushback tug and painted it in their colors by the time you come back in the morning. I mean, these these are the kinds of things that were going on in the ramp in Miami at 80, 86, 87, um, um, 88 time frame. Um, but um great experience. And unfortunately, in the summer, uh sorry, in December of 89, presidential folded and filed chapter 7. So I was I was without I I had no job. But what I did have was I had all my licenses, all my driver's licenses for all vehicles. I had all my security clearances, and a friend of mine said FedEx is hiring. And so I walked over to FedEx and they hired me immediately. And FedEx in were you in Miami or at Dulles? Dulles. Dulles. Dulles. And so it was uh uh late 89, and uh they brought me in as a ramp agent basically um at because of my experience level with with the military, they gave me quite a bit of responsibility fairly quickly. I have to say the training at FedEx was phenomenal. Yeah, uh safety-wise, I mean the ramp is is is a is a is a is a is a tough environment. And the training FedEx had, I still remember to this day. I mean, just absolutely phenomenal. Um and I I worked at FedEx for um uh about nine, ten months uh part-time, uh, but loved it. I mean, hard work. I have a bad lower back to prove it.

Courtney Miller 12:59

So so what were you were you uh you said you were working the ramp, so you were you were driving the tugs and so I had um at presidential I had pushback authority, so I had I I was I was licensed to push back aircraft, not at FedEx.

Steve Boecker 13:16

At FedEx, I would drove everything but push back the aircraft. And um to be part of the the the FedEx team, the DC 10 would come in from Memphis and they were like you know, ants on a sugar cube. It was amazing. The the the effort, I mean, just the coordinated effort. I I really enjoyed being part of that. Um it it was it was a phenomenal experience, but it's not something I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And so, but I don't before you move on, it was just fascinating because I don't think people appreciate air cargo, express, especially.

Courtney Miller 13:51

And and when asked, uh somebody asked me, like, what's the difference between like uh a cargo airline and a passenger airline? And and the the boxes don't walk themselves off the airplane. That's the difference. But now think of all the container rotation, and you gotta be pulling those, what were they, A containers, AMJ containers, whatever, whatever.

Steve Boecker 14:13

So they were we had a numerous ULDs unit load devices, which the non-car the non-cargo world forgets what they are, and they each have um usually three letters. They were AKEs, they were or LD3s, or um, they had three characters that designated what they were used, M10s, um, and and so um uh the DC 10, the 727, obviously AYY um containers, the set the DC 10 took some unique containers compared to that of the 727, but it was very organized, very it's very safety conscious. I cannot tell, but there was a clock. Courtney, you were right. I mean, boom. They would say we would um turn on they had what they call it FedEx TV. You you come in and um they said your aircraft is inbound. Now, this is this is years ago, so the number of aircraft coming in now to each station is multiple. Whereas this is we had one DC 10 a day, sometimes two, um, and believe it or not, the the little Falcon 10s were still running around. Oh wow then yeah, but they didn't have they weren't in FedEx colors, they were they were um contracted, but they were the part of the original FedEx fleet, which was pretty cool. And they were all bulk loaded, of course. Um but yeah, the clock, the clock, the clock, the clock. And what happened is is when FedEx pre-sorted um the vast majority of the cargo before it even came into the station. So there were three letter codes and they were pre-sorted in each container. And so what would happen is trucks would back up to the bay, and um they they would have um certain codes for certain destinations within the DC area, and then they would boom, off they would go. And so we would what we were always concerned about was how many mini-sort containers do we have? That means that when when the time when the time was clicking down in Memphis, they said we can't pre-sort anymore. They're all going in containers wherever they're going.

Courtney Miller 16:15

Which means you had to sort them.

Steve Boecker 16:18

You're following closely, Courtney. And so we were all we were always like, oh no. We were saying pre-sort containers too, pre-sort containers four, five, or like, oh geez. So that means everybody stayed, we're all on the belt, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then um, and it was it was fast and furious because they were the more the more mini-sort containers you had come off, the more time constraint you had, and people were nervous. So we had to put put that, but it was I enjoyed it, I loved it. I I thought I thought it was great. I really enjoyed working for FedEx. But what's not on my resume, but what I also did at the same time was I was I was a ticket agent for British Airways. Yeah, and um I I actually because BA used to work had two flights a day, normally, uh uh one seven four seven flight to Heathrow and then the Concord. And so Concord, the Concorde would come in, and a lot of people forget this. Concorde would come in from Heathrow, you know, Heathrow Dulles, turn, go to Miami. And RON in Miami spend the night and then come back through Dulles the next day. And so um I got to work the Concord a number of times. So I've um that was that that was way cool. That that was that was that that was that was pretty neat. But I did both jobs at the same time and I was not sleeping more than four hours at a time. My roommates hated me. I was not Mr. Happy, you know, but I I came in stinking from FedEx and then I had to take a shower and go to BA, and you know, um, so it was uh challenging times. But that that's when I found out boy, I I tell you, people in this industry, flight attendants, gate agents, ticket agents, God love you because that is at times a thankless job. It is one of the hardest jobs I ever had, and I give them so much credit because that is a tough job. That's a tough job on a good day. And I only did it for 10 months, but I was like, whoo, baby. Yeah, um, I would I was great respect for those folks.

Courtney Miller 18:21

Great respect. And when things go well, there's no like attaboy. It's when things go wrong, right? And that's kind of what it's like.

Steve Boecker 18:27

It's like, you know, you know, you know, good. And you know, there's all kinds of airport stories and ramp stories. We could go on forever, but um, but yeah, that was that was uh that was a fun time. And we were, I mean, you know, um at Presidential, we were all young, we were all in our 20s and 30s, and you know, we weren't getting paid hardly anything, and we were loving it. It was great. I got to do some very super cool stuff. And um a lot of ramp time, a lot of time on the ramp, which I enjoyed actually. I really did. And then um, and then so that um sitting at home one day, answered a blind dad in the Washington Post um for a sales job. And my my my buddies, we were out on a Saturday night, and they dared me to answer a sales a sales job. And I said, sales, and my buddies were like sales, that that that that's a guy in a you know in a green suit that sells a car that doesn't work. That's sales. And so it all it said was aviation sales. That that was it, and a P.O. box. And I sent my resume in, and literally, like a couple weeks later, I get a phone call, and it and it was Pemco. And Frederick Groth ended up being one of the greatest mentors I had throughout my career. And um, he called me and he interviewed me for like an hour and a half, and he said, I'm gonna fly you down to Burn Burn Birmingham. I said, I'm not a mechanic, I'm not an engineer. And he goes, I know, but I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna bring you down anyway. And um he said it was one of these, you know, mentorship some people see things in you that you don't see in yourself. And he saw something in me that I had never thought existed, and ended up being one of the passions of my life, and that was sales. And so I got hired as the regional marketing manager for Pemco um for aircraft maintenance and modification for Pemco, what was then Pemco Aeroplex based in Birmingham. Most of the commercial work was done in Dauphin, but um, and I did that for a number of years and loved it. I mean, and little did I know I was just gonna like blossom. By by that I mean really enjoy it, um, to a level that I never thought possible. And it's never that part of my career has never never stopped, meaning wanting to be in sales and um part of aviation. So yeah. And then um, and then uh um uh and then what happened is is I I I did well, I landed a couple of of contracts, shockingly, um, and um uh they expanded into Europe. And Frederick said, called me in one day and he goes, look, he goes, uh Sterling Air Airways in Denmark, the original Sterling, um has filed bankruptcy. It was in 1993, and he says, We're gonna lease the facility they this beautiful new facility they have at the southern part of the Copenhagen airport, and we're we're gonna expand into Europe and we want to take you with us. And I was like, where's Denmark? I was like, what? I can't even drive a stick shift. You know, I was like, but anyway, um, so that began the next phase of my career where international business and Frederick was very good at very, very good at uh you know, you know, expanding my envelope, making me go beyond what I thought was possible. I mean, there I went into sales, I didn't think I would like sales, I didn't think I'd be good at sales. Then all of a sudden we expand into Europe. Now all of a sudden he's like, you build the team. You're the head of the sales team, you build it. And so literally, I'm sitting in Copenhagen at this beautiful facility that was only a few years old, and I I built the sales team and um ended up again getting some. Pretty pretty decent contracts going to countries that I could barely know where they were on a map. It was funny during the World Cup. I'm with a bunch of friends and we're watching Cabo Verde play. And the guys are like, where in the heck is Cabo Verde? I said, I'll tell you where it is. And and so I had I gave him a story about traveling to to go see TACV, uh Cabo Verde Air Airlines. And um, you know, that experience, you know, you know, many similar those of those experiences that that changed me, that that broadened my horizons to do international business. Now we have international business and sales as drugs for me that uh that have never gone away. And flying to faraway places and you know, go doing contracts in Russia. I mean, this is in the mid-90s. It was it was gunfight at the OK Corral. It was rough. I mean, there were there was a we had a we had a Russian customer, and Frederick was like, they haven't paid us, go get the money. And I so I I show up in Moscow knocking on a door. What am I like? It's like you. Oh, that's uh yeah, I was like, good, good note, gun. So I ended up I ended up getting paid, but there's there were no there were no taxis then. No taxis. Wow. And it, you know, it was like, and the guy takes me to some innocuous person on this on the street corner and says, Take him to and he's speaking in Russian. He goes, he'll take you. I'm like, who is this guy? He goes, Don't worry about it. I mean, he's this this is the kind of stuff that that that you did in in the mid-90s, right? You're like, you you gotta be kidding me. But but anyway, so I so I I did that, and then I finally I did that for a number of years, loved it, had a huge contract with British Airways, uh, DHL, EAT in Brussels at the time, um, big contract with KLM, uh, got to know the KLM guys very well, really, really enjoyed it, and then it was time to go back. And then um, so that's late 87 and um sorry, late 97, excuse me. And um, it's time to do something else. And I was like, you know, we've reached the end of the road here, so I start network networking to leave, and then um uh ended up uh contacted uh Pratt and Whitney, a guy that I had met at a conference, and lo and behold, Pratt's looking for people who have airframe experience. And not engine experience, airframe experience. I wasn't an engine guy, I was an airframe guy. And so Pratt at the time was very focused on getting into nose to tail. They were it was a strategic area that they were very um very focused on at the time. So they brought me on, which was a rare case that they would bring a salesperson in externally, and they justified it by saying is he's got airframe experience where we need that, you know. And then not long after I was there, it kind of didn't work out for the nose-to-tail United Technologies, and it it it just didn't it didn't pan out. So now they you know they called me in, the the the guys that I worked for, they were like you could be you're you better learn engines pretty damn fast. And I mean like like like lightning speed, like speed reading fast. And I had a number of mentors who took me under their wing, and without them I wouldn't have made it because it was like, okay, now I gotta scramble. And I did, and I ended up doing okay, and I they hired me on as an engine services manager. I did that for a number of years. Um again, I was successful. I actually covered the Northwest account, so I had you know, I had Gil West as a customer, and you know, who I had who I would work for at Delta years a years later, which is kind of funny. Um and then I as I said, I had Northwest as a customer, landed a couple contracts, and then um uh an opportunity came up, and the head of uh director of European sales and marketing based in Paris, Hardship Tour, um came up came up and I competed and I was successful in getting that. So I moved to Paris in the summer of 2000 and ran the aftermarket team for Pratt Whitney, Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and was able to um uh develop that yeah, that that team was already in place largely, and um I had that for two years. Um it was it was supposed to be three to five years. Um 9-11 happened, and um so Pratt Whitney United Technologies brought, with a few minor exceptions, the expats back um back to the US. And at the time, unfortunately, I my daughter was born in Paris, and unfortunately I went was going through a divorce at the time, and so I they stayed in Europe. My wife at the time was Swedish. Um, she stayed in Europe and I I came back to the States. And um I ended up working for um uh Jill Albertelli at Pratt, and um that she had a team of folks. We had we had uh um the engine centers, so I had I had the Cheshire Engine Center in Connecticut, I had ESA in Singapore, um, and then um I got to work with some really cool people, Bill Kircher, who's now at CTS. Bill and I worked together um for a number of years together there, and then um uh it it it was great. It it was actually really, really good. So I forgot to say when I when I be between going to Paris and being hired as uh as an engine services manager, I actually um got promoted to an actual jet engine sales manager. Uh and that was a pivotal step up to get the other job to go to Paris. And I was the low man on the totem pole. And you know, part of me learning the ropes at Pratt was you had low-hang, they gave you, they gave you like the not you didn't get the five-star customers, right? You know, and and and so I had I got I had Evergreen Airlines in McMinnville, Oregon. Um, I got TWA, I had Emory Air Freight, I had Airborne Express, um, and a couple others, and they were all um financially challenged at the time. But then I realized, I'm like, wait a minute, they're not expecting anything from me. And so if I get anything done, it's gonna be good. And and so I realized, and so I took that on board, and you know, I loved it. I actually enjoyed working with Evergreen. I got to meet Dell Smith, who was an icon in the industry. Uh what a uh uh a great individual, um, worked with Dell quite a bit. And then um the and then of course the the the TWA guys, the TWA guys were great. I loved them, and it was hard because they were really struggling at the time. It was, it was, it was the they were on their last leg, but I just you know you know I loved them to death. But I got to celebrate their 75th anniversary. Um, my counterpart at the time at Pratt, Joe Churchill, who's still at Pratt now, he was my customer service manager, I was a sales guy, and we had them, and we just I just loved working for them. Uh we're working with with those guys, and I forgot to mention that. So so anyway, go to Paris and then um 9-11, come back, and then um, and then it was um I had engine center sales, so I had Cheshire, ESA responsibility, and then um and filling the engine shops and working with the sales team doing that. And then um then the opportunity came to go to IE. And um I I wanted to wait until um Bob Keedy at the time had asked me, do we what I would want to go to go to IE, and I said I'd rather wait till the leasing team comes together because I'd had less oars um uh um at Pratt and Whitney before, and I said I'd like to wait until the leasing team comes together. And so that's exactly what happened. Um the lead they put the leasing team together, and um I went to IE and I got to work with people like Chris Den K Chris Dennis, who's at Calc now, um, Steve Mason. Uh we all worked together as part of the same team, and then did that for a number of years, and then um and I worked at Pratt until um Pratt IAE until 2014, and then I spent a year at AirSale and then uh uh left AirSale in uh September of 2015 and then um had an opportunity to go to Delta and 10 years at Delta was phenomenal. Um it was uh a great opportunity. Um contacted Jack Earhart, who I spoke with and ended up working working for him and Sonny Stern for a while, and then had a couple of other bosses during that time. But I got to work at Delta at a time which was pretty dynamic. Um started in 2016. Um, the growth of the MRO organization there um to be part of that was something I'll take with me forever. An amazing team. Here you have you know the most profitable, one of the most profitable airlines in the world, one of the largest airlines in the world, and you're integrating third-party work into um the engine shop, the back shops. And um it's an amazing group of people who make it look easy, and it's not easy. It's a daily, you know, you don't want to miss an engine slot. So it's it's always a challenge to make sure a slot isn't missed. So then you also have to support the airline, keep Delta flying, and so um, and at the same time grow grow the third-party work. You hear Ed Bastion say all the time that the MRO is so important to Delta, and it is. And the growth of the MRO is important to Delta. They've now brought in Mark Meredith from Pratt and Whitney, who I worked with before. Um, Mark's a dynamic force, and he's gonna do great things there and take it forward. And so being part of that for 10 years was great. It was just time for me to do something different. I felt that it was time, you know, time to time to um do something else before I hang my hat up, really hang my hat up. And then um Robert Korn, who I've known for over 25 years and uh stayed in touch with, um, contacted me last year and said, Hey, what are you doing? And said uh that that he and and and Bill Hoffman were, you know, they were a year and a half out from uh transitioning out of Carlisle. They're still at Carlisle now to some degree, and that's gonna that's gonna end at some stage. But he said we we've we've created a new platform. And he said it's gonna be Hoffman Corn Asset Management Aviation. And he said it's gonna be, I said, Well, you put the band back together, you're gonna get a new left. He goes, No, no, no, no. He says we're gonna keep it at a certain size, it's gonna be an opportunistic platform for engines and aircraft to invest, finance, trade. Um, we could partner with a number of people to do certain things. And he said, I'd like for you to think about coming on board and being, you know, you know, working with me and developing the business. And so long conversations about that. And um I took the plunge. And so I I I let Delta know earlier this year, they were a bit, I think they were a bit surprised. I think they thought I was gonna make Delta the last stop on the career train. And you know, part of me wanted to, but you know, opportunities like this don't grow on trees. And um, it was a great time to do that.

Courtney Miller 33:04

They they didn't know that you chose presidential airways over Southwest, Eastern, TWA. These are the type of things that Steve, these are the decisions that Steve Becker makes.

Steve Boecker 33:15

That well, that that that that that's a fact. And I mean, I i it's funny because to this day people are like, You did what? And and I said, but I said I said, it was a pivotal part of my background in my career, and I wouldn't have traded it in for the world.

Courtney Miller 33:32

It was I get it. I was just looking at Presidential Dare and fascinating, right? Yeah. Um besides all the other airlines that that you named, I mean, most of them are gone now, except for Southwest, of course. That look, that would have been a lottery ticket, but you know, you can't win them all.

Steve Boecker 33:49

They they all they all they offered me the exact same job. And I thought, well, Southwest is an awesome company, but I think I'll be there for a while. Because people, you know, they're very they were, you know, Herb Kelleher was very focused on, hey, you start with me, that means something. Yeah, and you hire from within. And yeah, you know, kudos to Kerb to Herb for that because and I thought, well, uh presidential, I have a greater chance. And and and I wasn't wrong, but it was it was it was it was kind of chaotic at times, I'm not gonna lie. But it was it was a lot of fun.

Courtney Miller 34:21

Yep. Yeah, I didn't mean to to interrupt the story on No no uh is it uh HK is it aerospace aviation situation? Hoffman Korn Asset Management. HK Asset Management, that's right.

Gueric Dechavanne 34:34

So Steve, I will say I think you missed probably the biggest part of your career in IE, where I believe for several years you handled the appraisal community, which I did.

Steve Boecker 34:45

Well, I didn't I I felt like I was taking a little bit long, so I was like, I got to spend it.

Courtney Miller 34:51

Another great example of just going after the hard stuff.

Steve Boecker 34:55

Yeah, so no, it's it's a good point because you know when you were reading I was reading through your questions, and I I think probably one one of the proudest, one of the proudest aspects of my career is that when I was at when I was at Pratt before I went to IE, um, I was working for a gentleman by the name of Steve Agnelli, uh, who is a great, great guy. He spent a lot of time, he spent a lot of time at IE before he came back to Pratt. And I was very focused on the Less Horses. I mean, I had Lessors as customers, and I was banging the drum pretty hard. I said, you know, we don't have we don't have less or conferences like the other guys. Pratt was the last to do it. Um GE was doing it, CFM roles, um, IE hadn't done it yet. And and I said, and and so I I took the torch. I said, we're gonna do this. And and so I I had buy-in from my leadership, they were great, um, they were phenomenal at the time, um uh, you know, uh just very, very supportive. And so the very people that were there remember this. The first appraisers conferences we had were up in the um were up in the conference room of the training center. Um it was small enough to have it back then, and it was a great place to have it. And it it went great, and the support from the the the Pratt Whitney engineering team was phenomenal. And it grew and it got bigger and it got bigger, and then um, and then that continued, and then I went to IE, and and then that's where I met Rob Rosati, one of my dearest, closest friends. And Rob and I took that forward at IAE and said, we're gonna do this. So we're gonna do this here. And and so you were the recipient, Garrick, I think, of when we started to do that at at IE. And sounds like guinea pig is the right term. Made it a big deal. But the other the other challenge we had was everybody else was given out lessor handbooks. And Rob and I were like, we can this we can't not have a lessor handbook. It's time. And so we um, I mean, Pratt Legal at the time was was very skittish about putting out information they thought was proprietary and confidential. Time? I I aren't they I believe they're still. But so we we had, I remember that the chief legal counsel at the time was a lovely lady by the name of Kathy Bashaw. And I spent a lot of time with Kathy about this, and um we we got there, and and so somewhere in in this room here I have volume one, book one, year one of the V2500 Lessor Handbook, and the first one ever made, and Rob Rosotti has number two. And so we we were very proud of that, and then we did that for a number of years. I enjoyed that, and I I have to say, I mean, I was pretty vocal within within Pratt about taking the appraisal community, the consulting community, and treating them as customers. As you might expect, there was some resistance, like, hey, these guys will never buy aircraft. It's like, yes, but there's the residual value piece. If the perception in the marketplace is the OEM isn't or hasn't done something, then that's gonna have an impact as the appraisers assess value of engines. And it got back to me from one of my lessor customers that, for example, there was a German bank that had read an article that somebody had written about the V2500, and it was very disparaging, and they were gonna not not do a deal. And so he said, Can you get on an airplane and go to Hanover and talk to the bank? And I said, sure. And so I did. And I think over time the Pratt leadership team realized that, and to this day, they recognize the Lessware community and the appraisal community. So the the avatases, the IBAs, the collaral verifications, you know, I was adamant. You need to treat them as customers, visit them as customers, talk to them, brief them. Yes, you have your your your your conferences, but I was very proud of that, and and the fact that we we took that on board because there was there there was resistance, and over time, I think people realized, and you know, and Rob Azati and I worked really hard at that. Yeah. Re really, really hard.

Gueric Dechavanne 39:21

Yeah, and I will tell you that I think when you started that, right? I mean, because you you're right, other other OEMs were doing these things, but they the level of data that we were getting at the time was uh sprinkled here and then it was it was always like, well, we can't give you this, we can't give you that, you know. So you had to get it from different people, and and when you started to provide the level of data that you did for us to do our jobs, right, then it spread to like the others as well, right? And they they were like, Well, you're getting that from these guys, we need to do better. And so, like, I think you were the movement there to kind of get everybody else to kind of jump on board and do more, right? And then it's it's had over the years, right, it's had their ups and downs where we've gotten you know more data to a certain extent, and then all of a sudden it goes back a little bit because there's some changes within internally, right? And depending on the OEMs, right, it goes back and forth. But that movement just kind of has taken off because of it, right? So that was really cool.

Steve Boecker 40:22

No, it thank you for that. But it it was it was uh uh it was hard work um but Rob and myself, but we had a lot of support. And I have to say, um, I know Nick Tomassetti, Rick Derloo are still there, but I would say they were very helpful in that regard because they were very supportive because without their support, it wasn't gonna happen. But they were very much on board. And um, and I'll say that as the as the leasing team, um, since I've since I've been gone, you know, you've had um Dan Kirk has led the leasing team, Aaron McGary, Eric Wagner's got it now. Um, you know, these are good people that know what they're doing, and they've got a good a good set of sales folks and customer support folks to support them. And you know, they've they've they've done it they've done a good job. But the thing I'm most happy with is they still have the Dublin hat the Dublin Christmas, you know, holiday get-together that I started at the beginning of December. And the fact that they still do that, I was like, that's super cool.

Gueric Dechavanne 41:20

Yeah.

Courtney Miller 41:22

I want to talk uh a little bit about the MRO at Delta. Um, I mean, nothing don't don't share anything confidential, but it is unique in how Delta uh operates. In fact, I just noticed that they are now splitting out the MRO as a separate uh they're they're reporting it as its own kind of profit center. They they break that apart. So congratulations, Steve. I think you your success has something to do with that.

Steve Boecker 41:48

I I I think I I think I think we we had been trying to do to do that for a while. And um I I think the that that struggle, as I mentioned, that um, you know, you've got the airline piece, you know, Delta Air Airlines needs to needs to be what it is, and it needs to be an industry leader in every operational component. Um but the MRO piece is something that Delta truly enjoys. And it was one of the few parts of Delta that was during during COVID that was generating revenue. And a lot of revenue. Yeah. That's right. And and and and so that and cargo and the credit card, I mean the MRO, the credit card, and cargo were the three parts of the air, the airline that were that were generating revenue. And really, I mean, the fact that Delta didn't lay anybody off during COVID, that's awesome.

Courtney Miller 42:37

Yeah. Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm interested in in just kind of the the philosophy. You know, uh there are many times I've spoken to airlines, and if I was selling airplanes at Bombardier or whatever, I'd say, well, look, you know, it's this airplane's optimized, whatever, and they'd say, Yeah, well, fleet commonality. And we would always say, Well, Delta did it, and they'd say, Well, Delta has tech ops, so that's like cheating. I'm like, so why don't you have one of those? But but it's from that perspective, like what just kind of from that overall operating philosophy, what what did besides the just the the operating income from the MRO and the third party and all that, what capabilities, like how does it uh how does it get Delta to think differently?

Steve Boecker 43:26

The the MRO capabilities are the same capabilities that Delta Air Airlines, that the the the technical capabilities that Delta Tech Ops has, that utilization mirrors both MRO and for the airline. And so um and as a result of that, one of the things that we that that when I was there, the 10 years that I was there is what's sellable? Like what can we go sell? Whether that's what whether that's um component volume, whether that's um airframe maintenance, which I I feel bad for the Less Ours because we would get phone calls all the time, and the the the Delta has very limited third-party airframe capability just because they they just don't have the space. And Delta does very little, uh very, very little of their own heavy airframe maintenance. It's all farmed out. Um and also when when when Delta instituted the the Rolls-Royce engine shop um in 2018-2019 timeframe, um they displaced um you know six hangar bays. They transformed six heavy maintenance hangar bays in into an engine shop, into one of the most beautiful engine shops that that you'll ever see. But that was a conscious decision. And it it was the right decision.

Courtney Miller 44:41

Were these for the XWBs or the All the Rolls engines.

Steve Boecker 44:46

Oh wow. This is this is this is the 1000s, the XWBs, the 7000s. Yeah. My goodness. And so and and so the 1000 is the only engine that Delta doesn't fly. Now they just ordered it, so I can't say that anymore, right? They just Yeah, but I don't think they've chosen did they choose an engine? I don't know. Sorry, sorry, I apologize. Oops, Freudian slipped. They chose the Gen X. They chose Oh, they did, okay. I didn't even know that they did. Sorry, sorry. Yeah, they chose the they chose the Gen X. So the 1000 is the is the one engine that Delta doesn't fly, that they maintain. And that was a request from Rolls-Royce, and Delta said yes, and and it was a good thing because I think the 1000 operators are pretty happy about Delta having that capability. I think I think it would be hard-pressed if Delta didn't. So um, so anyway, um, so that that capability transcends the the MRO piece, the airline as well. And and so um going back to what I've said a couple times now is managing, so when when we have when the sales team's out talking about CFM 565 B7B maintenance, you know, leap 1B maintenance, um, whatever it may be, whatever engine type you're talking about, you know, it's critical that we understand what the capacity is. We don't want to we don't want to uh undersell or you know, oversell or underdeliver. And so finding that balance about what we can go sell slot-wise was was something that um that's done daily. And my my former counterpart at at Delta, uh Mark Covey, um who's who's a superhero, does this daily, the interface between the operational shop, the sales team, and manages that. And and that is that is a complex, difficult task, and they do a very, very good job of it. So the bottom line is what ends up happening is Delta maintains its operational capability. And that's combined with lease engines that Jeff Keisling's team does, that and they make that that decision that at a much higher management level. And then so the slots that they have available to sell, the MRO team goes and sells them. So the intent is you don't have a slot that doesn't have a that doesn't have a customer, or it either doesn't have a Delta engine in it or it doesn't have a customer engine in it. That's the goal. And you know, um as I like to say, you know, perfection is not a destination, it's a journey. Meaning that, meaning that, you know, it's never perfect, but gosh, you can get pretty close to that. And I think I think the entire tech ops team does a really good job of that. And I think when you're when you're maintaining one of the largest fleets in the world, I think having the tech ops name. I mean, there were people that I I lost track of the number of phone calls that I would get. They would say, hey, I've had my engine done at so-and-so, they don't have a test cell. Can I just can I just put it through the Delta test cell so I could get Delta 8130 tag on the test cell? And I'd be like, Oh, oh, let me think about it. No. And it was like it was like who wouldn't want a Delta 8130 tag? The test cell uh guys and gals are some of the some of the best in the world. And it became very, you know, putting it putting an engine that's been maintained somewhere else in the Delta test cell is a huge risk. And that's something that we rarely, if ever, is done.

Courtney Miller 48:04

And are there I'm trying to think, I guess uh is it similar to how Luftanza technique kind of handles theirs? Are there other examples that that kind of have the same scale that the TechOps does within the organization?

Steve Boecker 48:20

So what's interesting is um everybody at TechOps is a Delta employee. They're not spun off, it's not a subsidiary. You're in the air everybody at TechOps, there are contractors. I want to be careful here because there are there are there are full-time employees and then there are contractors. But the people at TechOps are airline people, they're not a separate company, and a lot of times that's not always the case. And and so one of the questions that I always would get is how do I know that you're not gonna bump my engine? Um that a Delta engine is not not gonna take priority. And it's a fair question. And I think you know, part of being in sales for four years, one thing you learn is you know, never lie. Is it possible? Yes, it's possible. Is it probable? No, it's not probable. Um and I think when you have that conversation with them, because I think in my entire time that I've had that I had at Delta, I think I think I had to call a customer in 10 years, twice, maybe three times, where I had to say it wasn't like, hey, your slot's gone, boom, you're out of here. It was more like I I apologize, and one of those was for um 767400 has a very unique engine type. CF680C2B8F. United and Delta are the only operators in the world. So if you're if you're down on spares and you have a UER of some kind, you know, you're up a creek. And so you've got to induct. And so that happened to me, and I had to bump one of my customers, not off the grid, just down the road a bit, so that we could induct a Delta engine in that place. And there was uh another anomaly that happened on a Pratt 2000. Um, so it does happen. It's pretty rare. Because imagine us getting a Delta getting a customer, you sign on the dotted line and saying, Um, well, you know, Delta had another, we we had to bump you. It's like I mean, that's that's that's something that we desperately tried not to do and to minimize that at all costs, because we didn't want to have somebody say, Hey, I told you so. Um, because part of being an airline MRO, which has the more benefits than drawbacks by far, um, it's still something that you as a salesperson, as a customer service person for Delta, you need to be mindful of and put your put yourself in the shoes of the customer, and that's always something they're gonna be looking at.

Courtney Miller 50:47

That's I find that uh fascinating because yeah, that's the question that comes to mind is how do you not how do you deal with competitors, but how do the competitors deal with the idea of of working with or relying on on their I guess competitor. I I I wouldn't imagine that you inducted many United Airlines airplanes, but so I so I so so it's interesting, right?

Steve Boecker 51:10

So I've had this conversation with a number of people. So I would I would be telling an untruth if I said that uh some of our competitors have made it very clear that um I think one of our competitors said uh my engine will never grace the doorway of a tech ops facility or something along those lines. Yeah, until it's uh until it's AOG in Atlanta. But but but the other but the other thing is this, you know, because through the through the offload programs, um the the the Rolls-Royce program, um, the Pratt and Whitney program, um, you know, there was a time, I think we counted, I for I forget, I don't know, eight to ten spirit engines in the Delta facility. And you know, you tell people that and they're like, what? Spirit sends you their engines? Like, well, through Pratt and Whitney. Sure. I mean, Pratt Whitney's our customer. The operator happens to be Spirit. And so um I think visitors were always intrigued by that. Like, and you don't treat them any differently? Absolutely not.

Courtney Miller 52:06

It's well you charge them extra. Like, like if they want if if they know nothing of what you speak, not oh oh you want the extra grease? Oh, that'll be ten dollars.

Steve Boecker 52:17

The good grease. No, but but but but but it I mean, but but it it's a fair question, and and there are times that it has come up, and at the end of the day, it's the customer's decision. And um when it's when it comes through the OEM, be it Rolls-Royce, Pratt and Whitney, um, you know, we had uh uh Delta's got an offload program through through uh Sefren, same thing. Each of those operators knows, I mean, we know who the operator is, but the customer, the contracted customer, is the OEM. And so um and and and but we but if they want to come visit, they're welcome. You know, we open arms, you know, Delta was very good about that. Whoever the operator was, whoever the own owner was.

Courtney Miller 53:02

You just have to walk under a big neon sign that says fly Delta Jets to get there. Yeah, smile, but but but but to your point, the I mean look, what what resolves those concerns more from the other airline side, it quite frankly is time. You know, the longer that you operate the way that you were talking about operating with as few interruptions as as uh happened over that time, I mean it makes sense that okay, they they would they would be more comfortable, it builds the MRO business, it builds scale, Delta benefits from from that as well. It's it's an interesting, interesting concept, um, and one that I think we could all agree has been successful.

Steve Boecker 53:48

Yeah. I mean, I mean there people ask when I was there, people would ask me all all the time if you know we thought that uh tech ops was gonna ever gonna get spun off, and I'm like uh that's that's a decision way above my pay grade. And but I but I but I will tell you that tech ops is without question an integral component of the airline, and the MRO is an integral component of that. And I mean to to to its core. And and having been there for the past 10 years, um I've lived it, I've seen it. Um it's a it's a very powerful part of who Delta is. Yeah.

Gueric Dechavanne 54:27

Um so I'd like to focus a little bit on what you're doing today. Right, because if I if I look at your career path, right, basically it feels like this job that you have today was made for you. I mean, when you think about it. That may be true, actually. If you think about the the what you're doing today, right, you obviously guys are focused on you know a lot on on the engine side, trying to find deals, right, Ben. You you basically have all of the different check boxes that, you know, in terms of having work for an airline check, OEM check, mro check, right, you name it, uh, it's been there. So I guess you know, from your side and for those that that listen and that are looking at you know how do you how to get to their next level of of position in aviation or like how is all of that experience benefited what you're doing today, right? Because you're ultimately when you're looking at assets, right? How does that play out?

Steve Boecker 55:19

No, that it's a it's a it's a very it's a very intuitive perception because when Robert contacted me initially, and um you know, I was scratching of the head, there might have been a little bit of blood coming down. I'm like, what? You know, and and so it it took uh a lot of conversations with him about what you just said, because I I do have quite a large bandwidth. And a lot of like I said, a lot of people are more focused, but I've had qu quite a bit of bandwidth, which means um I I know enough to be dangerous about a lot. But that said, um I I will say because I had people I have had people reach out to me and say, How did you how did you do that? How did it all come about? And I would say, I can't answer that because Robert called me, I didn't call him. And I I think here's here's what it goes back to. Um and it's w one of the questions that was in your what was in your your note to me before the call today was um what matters, what's most important if I'm in the industry, how does how do you get there, and so on and so forth. One thing I found is this, having been in sales for 40 years, is relationships matter. And I the people that I've done business with through the years I've stayed in touch with. Robert's one of them. He's one of several. And these are people that I've just come to know through through the years and have done business with. And it comes down to you know, trust, integrity. And um, and so yes, there's the knowledge base, but there's also the network, if you will. And so obviously, Robert at this at the C-suite level, his his network is a bit different than mine, but combined, you know, it's it's pretty amazing because there are still people that that I deal with in my space over my 40 years that he he doesn't know, and vice versa on his side, of course. And we found that quite compelling in terms of our combined capabilities, in terms of the identification of opportunities, the assessment, the network, who can you call this, that, or the other. And that part of this job has been pretty um, it's been pretty amazing. Even in the in the nine 90 days that I've been in been in this job, uh, it's been pretty evident. And being Robert and I've known each other for quite a long time. I can remember when when he told me he was going to start Apollo aviation. I remember visiting him in Miami with a you know uh a closet full of boxes. He didn't own anything. And you know, look look at what he and Bill Hoffman have done. Yeah. It's unbeliev it's uh it's unbelievable. So being part of that that that their their that that space with them um at this part of my career is I'm very fortunate and very, very fortunate. And and it is, you know, 90 days in and and I love it. I mean, and I've and I love I love the industry, right? Um but as as awesome as this industry is, it's also um it's also kind of it can it it can be harsh, the consolidation. There are good people that get lost in the fray of consolidating companies looking for jobs. We get emails from time to time, and um you can be humbled pretty quickly, and I'm very humble about where I am and how lucky and fortunate I am. But there are people out there from time to time that um through no fault of their own are found in in a position that um they could that they could use a helping hand. And I never forgot that. Because there are times in my career when I needed that, and people were there for me, and I think we should be there for them. Yeah, absolutely.

Gueric Dechavanne 59:18

Well, and that's that's what I love about aviation, right? I mean, you've got you know so many, so many great connections and contacts, and I mean, except for there there's definitely some people out there where you're like, eh, you know what, you don't need to talk to that person. But I think those are very few, right? I think most for the most part, you know, the people that we know uh are always willing to lend a hand uh when you know when you've known people for 20 plus years or or more, right? So it's it's uh that's the the great thing about aviation. Um but um Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so all right, let's let's pivot a little bit. Um and so you you look at today's environment, right? You guys are you're you're stepping in, you said you're nine days in, and you know, we're in an environment which is fairly competitive when it comes to trying to you know find assets, buy assets. It is, right? And so how do you get around that to try to you know make a successful career out of what you're doing, right? Because it's it's you're competing with everybody else.

Steve Boecker 1:00:17

So how does it so I just so I I think I think that's the crux of it right there. I don't think we want to compete with everybody else. I think what the way we're approaching it is from an opportunistic standpoint. If Airline X comes out with an RFP for 26 engines, the likelihood of us participating in that not very high. But if you want to uh if if somebody that that Robert, I or Bill or Jack Hoffman who works with us knows and they want us to, hey, I got two A320s, I'm not gonna go out on the market with it. But would you guys willingly be that's the kind of stuff we're looking at is what I would call the non-mainstream stuff. Opportunistic things, and frankly, Robert and I are in agreement that that actually um generates the largest opportunity to make the most margin. So if you are competing to your point, Garrick, with everybody else, you know, it's it's it's it's a rough world out there. And I mean, good engines. I mean, look at the 7B market, the 5B market, right? It's on fuego. I mean, it what people are paying for for unserviceable engines is is is unbelievable. Yes, we we we we we are getting those RFPs, but we are being, I would say, selective in how we approach that, which ones we want to dig into and take a look at. Um we are always appreciative of we want to look at if somebody wants to put something across our our desk, happy to take a look at it. We are looking at, I mean, we're really focused on mid-end of life, absolutely. But some people will throw us GTFs, some people will throw us leaps. Um, I'm not gonna say we're gonna dig into that with the rest of God and country, um, but I would say you'll take a look at it because that data point is just as important as saying yes or no, that intelligence piece. What are they asking for? What's what what does the bid entail? That becomes part of your intelligence portfolio. And I think that building up that intelligence portfolio is just as important as coming to a yes or no decision whether you want to go forward with an offer. And so I think the best way to say that is we're looking at, we we look at it is from an opportunistic standpoint. Does it make sense? Because if my if I'm competing with 50 people, I'm probably not going to do it. But if it's something that's somebody goes, hey guys, what what about this? And I would say most of what we're we're taking a look at now is is exactly that.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:02:47

Yeah, and that's I think that's the way to I think to to successfully look at doing these things, right? I mean, because these days, yeah, as you say, it's so competitive for the bigger stuff. And you've got you know people with I think different uh goals, right, that are trying to get you know perhaps more volume more so than returns. And so, you know, you're competing with those guys as well, and that's not worth it.

Courtney Miller 1:03:11

So like you said, it comes down to the relationship. When you're one of 50 that receives an RFP, uh well, that's kind of the definition of a commoditized transaction, right?

Steve Boecker 1:03:23

I mean and and and there are there are people that are you know that there's and there's a it's a spot market right now for a couple of of product types. And um, you know, what's interesting is the information that came out of Farnborough for for example, and it looks like you know, I saw your your email the other day, Courtney, and that you know, God love Pratt and the G GTF.

Courtney Miller 1:03:48

It looks like they're turning the corner, you know, and good for the it's it's a it's a very, very wide corner. It's just kind of a slow.

Steve Boecker 1:03:58

We're already starting to see data. We're starting to see data points where um you know the 1100 lease rates are coming down, right? Um the minimum time periods for the lease term um it's changing. And so um, you know, I uh not just because I used to work for them, but because I because I believe in them, um, is that you know Pratt will get there, and I I think the advantage I think the advantage kids gonna do it. And um and and I believe them. And so what that means is your your your 5B, 7B, more of a 7B bubble that you're in, yes, um is is going to take a change. Whether whether that's a shallow change or what, but there there will come a time where that that does change because you know uh what so right now if if you're able to secure um you know even unserviceable 7Bs at a decent price, go team, but the chances are you're paying more than you should. Question is ask that same question a year and a half from now. Yeah, and that's gonna be the same.

Courtney Miller 1:05:04

The the question that we get, and uh I have the last week or so by quite a bit is hey, how's this engine market? How's the 5B? Uh how hot is that market? And I always ask, compared to what? What do you want? Like it's good, it's it's good, it's really, really good. But not, I mean, last year was kind of crazy. I mean, I don't know where your scale is. Are you asking year over year? Because it but but by the way, it's not that doesn't mean that anything's popping or blowing up either, right? It but if if if you were watching line goes up and to the right for the last five years and and you're continuing that you know pricing line off into forever and ever land, uh well no. So it it it's more just managing expectations, I think I found like It's it's more like I hear a lot about uh I I'm starting to hear the the word and not to freak anybody out, but market softness. And I'm like, uh you mean like less hardness? Is that a thing? Uh yeah. Like what what what what what do you call that? Like normalization.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:06:18

Normalization is what I like to be. It's right.

Courtney Miller 1:06:21

It's depressing, it's not depressing. It's it's just kind of boring. I mean, but that's you know, and what stability looks like.

Steve Boecker 1:06:27

And I I think what people need need to remember is this, and you know, the three of us have talked about this before. You know, you had a situation where you had new technology engine entrants enter at the same time. And it oh it the the the poor market really got hit hard with that. And you know, the appraisal community, how do you determine, you know, they don't matter um maintenance reserve rates and you know, when you know the time on wing is is like all over the map and it's not what it was supposed to be. And and I've said this and and I and I'll be blue in the face and I'll say it forever. Every single engine type, regardless of manufacture, has had their day, meaning that they've had their issues and they will get there. The question is, how long will it take to get there? If you look at the history of the 7B before that, it was you know the dash three, and then it was, you know, the five 5A, and then before that the dash two. Well, look at the CFM dash, they almost canceled the program. Had it not been for the DC 8 reengining and the KC-135s, CFM wouldn't exist.

Courtney Miller 1:07:39

What was what was the origin of the 56?

Steve Boecker 1:07:43

It well, it was it was basically the um it it was they ended up um successfully selling it as DC8 re-engine and to re-engine the KC-135s. W was that the first type that it was on? I believe it was. No, I'm sure somebody watching may know more than me, but to my understanding that that that it really was the DC8 re-engining.

Courtney Miller 1:08:06

Ten seconds on Wikipedia we can have as answer, but that's no fun.

Steve Boecker 1:08:10

Right, but but um but but uh but but what I'm saying is every engine goes through their development issues, and and so whenever overly harsh to any one engine manufacturer, any one engine type, I would say to take caution because everybody has their moment and they will get there. And and that's that's GTF, that's leap, that's that's that's the that you know the the XW, everything. You know, they will get there and just a matter of how long it does it take to do that. And um, you know, time has shown that it it it it will get there. I mean I remember when the when the V2500 launched as the A the A1, it was like, oh Lord, you know that you know it it it it had its own fair share share of issues, and then every single A1 got the Phoenix kit, and then all of a sudden you had a new V2500, and then you had the A5, and then Select 1, Select 2, and then you know so on and so forth. So you you you you evolve and the engine gets better. The time on wing gets better. So um so I I have faith in the engine manufacturers that that things will get better.

Courtney Miller 1:09:16

I I think the the the natural follow-on question to your statement that we will get there is where is there?

Steve Boecker 1:09:28

No, that's a fair point, because the question is will you get will you get the time on wing, the EGT margin degradation that you get in the current technology engines? And the answer is I don't know. Yeah. And because uh I I I I'm I'm not I I don't have a crystal ball and and I'm certainly not an expert in that arena, but it's a fair question to ask because it it was certainly the industry expectation that when when um the GTF came out and the leap came out and other engine types that they would mirror that of the current technology engines. And you know, they're struggling to get there, and hopefully they they will. But I I know there are some concerns in the industry, there there are some doubt doubters that say that that won't happen. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is I think we we need to let the OEMs do it do their jobs and do the best that they can. But I I think that but that the the the final answer is yet to be answered.

Courtney Miller 1:10:28

So that which begs the the next follow-on question. Uh considering, I mean, because a lot of this has to do with the hotter temps in the core and new materials. When so the OEMs have their projections, right? I mean, all they can do, they're they're they have their engineers, their uh the chemists, I guess. I mean, it's down to the molecular level at some point and they're projecting forward. But when will we as an industry kind of know what we're looking at? Is this something where like we won't, for instance, if we're supposed to see, I'm gonna make up a number here, but if we were supposed to see 15,000 cycles, we wouldn't know whether or not we were gonna get to 15,000 cycles until we saw 15,000 cycles. That takes five, six years, however long, depending on on the engine type. How much of this is gonna be backward looking? Of like, oh, oh, I guess we have had that reliability. We just couldn't tell for another four or five years or whatever.

Steve Boecker 1:11:30

Yeah, no, I I so so I'll say it this way, and I'm I'm gonna give you somewhat of a PC answer, and there's a reason for that. It's a valid question to ask, but I would not want to put myself in the shoes of an OEM to say, well, um, I think GE should say this, or I think Pratt should say that. I I I think that's up to them to answer that question. Um, because they certainly are getting enough heat from um the airlines, the lessors, the investors, um, about the performance of the engine. And they're they're they're working their butts off. I mean, and they really are. And so for them to I think I think it's up to them to answer that question. So I I I wouldn't want to suppose or preclude in any way what they may or may not say as as it relates to that. Um, but I I I think I think to say that they're keenly aware of of what the market perception is is um pretty obvious.

Courtney Miller 1:12:28

Well, so I well let me let me rephrase then because I'm truly I'm not asking a controversial question. I'm just it's more of a measurement thing. Like people we're we're waiting for things to get better. The industry is waiting for things to get better, but let's assume that things just got better. Like let's let's assume that all the fixes are done. Hey, they did it. When would we really notice that? Does that is that make sense what I'm asking there? Like, because shop visits don't happen all the time, and we don't necessarily, you know, ETT margins aren't all hit the same time.

Steve Boecker 1:13:03

Well, I I think I think the obvious answer is you're not gonna know it until it actually happens. And I mean you have the oh the OEMs will give you projections about what we think we can get to so-and-so with so-and-so. And you say, all right, okay, fair enough. And so the next piece is, well, did you do that? Did you actually see that happen? Of course, yeah. You know, we when you go to if you're an owner operator and you get where we're or the lessores or the appraisers. Well, at the last year's appraisers conference, this is what you said. You said that you'd be getting the time on wing or the EGT margin the degradation would be X. Are you seeing that? Because this is what you said last year. And so, and the conferences that I've been involved with are relentless, meaning that they're not shy in asking these types of questions. And and so, and I I think what's happened is is OEMs now find themselves as if if you're going to say that it's going to do this, whatever this is, and you come back a year later to the same group of people, you know, it's report card time. And how did you do? Are you getting, are you, are you seeing a path to what you told us last year? And I think that the um the faith in each OEM accordingly is going to be judged based upon that performance. You know, this is what you said, this is where we are, that's where we want to be. But at the end of the day, Courtney, yeah, you're not going to find out until you actually get there.

Courtney Miller 1:14:29

And and a year, I mean, uh we have enough engines flying and enough data that a year you would really.

Steve Boecker 1:14:35

I think it depends upon the the engine you're talking about, right? So the so so so so the greater the population, right? Sure. If you're talking about 1500s, it's not the same, the 1100s is it's just there's uh much fewer engines on the 1500s, for example.

Courtney Miller 1:14:48

Sure. Like 7,000, right? I mean, yeah, it's correct.

Steve Boecker 1:14:52

I mean, I mean, the smaller the population, the the the more um it the the l less likely you're you're you're gonna get to um to to you know the uh a more a more v viable number. But again, I'm not trying to dodge the question. I I I want to give the opportunity for the OEMs to speak because I mean they've been feeling the heat for a number of years now, and they're they're they're working their butts off on on it. So I'm like, all right, I'll take them to their word. Yeah, those poor OEM sales guys. Hey, I mean, but the what the one the one the one thing you learned as an OEM sales guy is never say something that's not true. And if you don't know something, say you don't know it. I don't know, yeah. And um because there are more times than not, I mean, it look, there's pressure. I mean, you're sitting in a I mean, I've been that guy. You're in a you're in a conference room full of 30, 35 people, and you know, they got laser eyes on you, and you know, they're wanting you to make a commitment. And the lesson I learned the hard way is don't even cross a line, even in a minuscule capacity, where you can't commit. If you don't know, say you don't know. But if you owe somebody an answer, you say you'll get back to them. Um, but you get into the space where you start feeding up great information. Um, and that's one thing I I've prided myself on in my sales career generally is if you don't know, say you don't know. But if you know it, tell them. And um like also, you know, one of the things that was what was on your list as well, Garrick, about you know uh somebody who's entering the industry is um uh I call it your ethical DNA. Like what makes you who you are, you know, and so doing business, we we we talk about relationships and doing business with people. Um and through the years I've gotten to know many, many people in the industry. And your reputation is only good as the people that you've been dealing with for the past, in my case, 40 years. So if anybody has an issue, there's a couple thousand people to ask. And so, and when to you know, you realize that early on and saying, you know what? You know, whatever I tell you is gonna be the truth. And if it's bad news, then we'll have a bad news conversation. But if I give you a bad news conversation, I'm gonna have a path to to to to to get your question answered. And that's something you learn early on in your career.

unknown 1:17:20

Yeah.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:17:20

And by the way, Courtney, just to add to the uh to answer your question, you also have to keep in mind that it depends on how the improvements on an engine are put put out, right? Because I mean if it's oh yeah, we need to rectify the harsh environments first, right, then the the advantages may not, you know, they'll be it's not gonna be as like, oh, you know what, we're gonna see those, you know, within this nice time frame, right? So because it all it all depends on on how it's being put out there and which fire is being put out first.

Courtney Miller 1:17:51

So um yeah, it in that um yeah, it truly uh I there's there's no challenge of the OEMs and their work in that question. It truly is just understanding like uh it's really kind of a question of the throughput of the industry, right? From an engine perspective. Um, how often we see, you know, with the GTF was a great example where they're just like, sorry, you hit your number, that airplane can't fly anymore until we take a laser picture and put it in the bath and spa day and the whole works. Uh but the yeah, the um it's laser spa. Um that's that those are the best ones versus you know each t margin, which is different, right? It so you so you're gonna have or or maybe different limits, or maybe, or maybe it's not necessarily the uh the length of the limit so much or the number of cycles, but how it offsets from another component, right? Just all these different factors that that come to play where you may not really the question you know kind of revolves around if we had an issue with the max that caused the grounding. Well, we knew when an issue was resolved because the airplane started flying again, and it was almost immediate. Like we're kind of in that mindset. But when it comes to engines, especially engine durability, it's different. We may have a fix, we may have a solution, but you you may have an engine without that solution because there's actually no need to fix it until X. It's just a it's just a different kind of time frame, different mathematical equation, I guess. I don't know.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:19:35

Yeah. Um, Steve, I want to I want to kind of go to go back to something that you you alluded to before. Um when it comes to obviously, yeah, the the engine OEMs uh figuring things out, resolving their issues, um, and that may or could lead to a change in previous engine generation markets, right? And I guess when I think about the environment that we've been in, right, it's you know, they've been double-digit increases year over year on the maintenance side, on the part side. And and so I think a lot of folks today with the engine markets being so hot, everybody's like, yep, you know what, it's gonna keep going forever. The value of the engine is gonna keep keep going, right? The value of the maintenance is gonna keep going. Um, but I think we all, having been in the industry, all of us for uh quite some time, we all know that that's probably not sustainable. So, how do you think about that in terms of when you know what needs to happen for those changes to to occur, or how do you look at that uh when you're investing in like previous generation engines? I mean, you know, you have to consider all these things.

Steve Boecker 1:20:47

So yeah, no, so you know look look look look, it's a fair it's a fair question because one of the um uh at at Delta we had the um the benefit of having a large bandwidth of engines that we were putting through the facility. And you had older technology engines, um 2000s, 4000s CF6s, um mid-life newer assets 5B, 7B, and then much newer. Um we just started you know putting uh toe in the water on Leap 1Bs. When it went when it when it came to, I mean, I had numerous conversations with both operators and lessors about older assets, to your very point. At what point does it make sense not to shop an engine or to shop an engine? What do I do? Um and it came down to um cost per cycle. So you're gonna build an engine to X number of cycles, and you're gonna fly it how long? And then you say to yourself, okay, what's your target cost per cycle? We did a we did a program for a lessor for a number of seven Bs, and they gave us a number, and they were like, You have to hit that mark. That's my cost per cycle because I'm gonna build the engine to X number of cycles. That means everything else building up to that needs to be in this zone because if it doesn't happen, then it doesn't make sense for us to do this. So then it becomes to a large extent a material play. Do you have access to the to the to the LLPs and the stubtime LLPs at a certain price to hit that target? Do you do you have other used serviceable material at a to be acquired at a certain price to do the same thing to tie into that? It was a lot of effort, but we did it. It was a lot of effort, but it actually produced a number of shop visits for engines that were had targeted build, right? If it's just you know, overhaul it, it's like those those those days those days are gone. Meaning for for third-party work. I mean, you have air airlines come to you, Les Source come to you saying, I don't have a blank check to do this. It doesn't make sense to me to do this. But I would really like to have a Delta 8130 tag on this engine. So let's work together to find then it becomes a work scoping discussion. What it what's what's a nice to have and what's a have to have. And that's hard because works scoping engineers like to flex their muscles. Oh, you need to, yep, you need to do all this stuff. And you know, it's like okay, do you really need to do all this stuff, or can you get by with a lesser work scope that's gonna get us to where we need to be and bring that price down to a level where the customer is gonna find it acceptable? So the whole access to use service use serviceable and um parts is a very big deal. And it varies from engine type to engine type. And we mentioned earlier on, for example, the 7B right now is pretty hot. So the throughput of use serviceable 7Bs that people purchase on on, you know, um is harder to get and it's at a higher price. So therefore, shop visit costs are going up as a result of that. So now we talk about the impact of the GTF. The GTF gets healthier, the GTF gets healthier. Will will it will will there be a use the S-word in Courtney, soften, will it, will it, you know, rationalize or nationalize, whatever. Um and I I think that that there that there will come a time when when that happens. But the reality is you have engines that need to come in the shop now. You have airlines that need to shop engines now to keep a certain spares ratio. And so that means do you lease engines in at a higher price? So their cost of ownership is going up as a result of that for that particular engine type right now. And it's not the same across the board. Um, you know, uh the cargo operators, right? You know, the CF6s, you know, use use serviceable CF6 material, Pratt 2000 material, um, Pratt 4000 material, all of that, all of it's the same conversation for a different engine type. Similar discussion, but it's slightly different based upon the engine. And so that has to be managed very well, but it comes down to cost per cycle. It's like, what can you build an engine to? And it needs, and if that's not controlled, you're gonna run into a problem where it's like, guys, I can't afford this. I cannot afford this. It doesn't make sense to me. And so that need these are conversations that need to be that need to happen up front and workscope, the workscope engineers, that discussion is critically important. You serviceable now the the engine may come in in say September. You may need to start acquiring material in advance of that in order to do that. That comes the hard part, and then you're like, okay, well, that means, oh shit, oh, that's the I-word, that's inventory. That means I have to increase my inventory in the near term so that I can have a shop visit that stays within target three, four months from now. But I have to, I have to get, you know, and that's when you get into a payment term conversation with the customer. Hey, I'm gonna need up front so that I can acquire material, because if it's not, if it's I'm not gonna have all these stubtime LLPs sitting around, I've got to go get them. They might not be readily available if I have to buy them at the time the engine comes in. And so these are all those kind types of conversations that have to happen if you're going to control maintenance cost, because this the maintenance cost and the determination of maintenance cost and the managing of maintenance cost is critical to any operator and lessur, if it happens to be a lessur who's inducting the engine.

unknown 1:26:43

Yeah.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:26:44

I mean it's to me that's so interesting, right? Because it you're we're we we might get into a situation here where as the issues get resolved on the new tech engines, right, and they become the durability's there, right? And so now all of a sudden airline's like, well, we probably don't need as many spares. So that brings that market down to a certain extent. And you're seeing you're seeing it today on the lease rates, right? So that means that now all of a sudden airlines, like, yeah, you know what, we like this engine, cost per cycle is probably going down, fantastic. So we maybe don't need to shop five Bs or 7Bs that we thought we were going to have. That puts those out on the market, puts more USM in the market, that lowers the cost of those engines, which probably makes them more attractive again, right? It's like a back and forth. Uh it's it's really interesting.

Steve Boecker 1:27:28

And so that that that dynamic will will never change, regardless of the market. Is is is it cheaper to lease an asset in for a period of time or to shop the engine now? But as I've as I've said many, many years, you can only rob Peter to pay Paul for so long. You can't stave off shop visits forever. At some point you're gonna have to start inducting them, you know. Um, but leasing engines in for a period of time is always an option if the market is at the right price, because sometimes um spot markets on certain engine types at bat I mean uh at at the wrong time and all of a sudden you're locked into a rate that's that's not sustainable for a long period of time. But for a short period of time maybe it is. And and so that's that that that's ne that dynamic is never going to change.

Courtney Miller 1:28:20

Kind of along the the same lines there, um I kind of curious your your take on FTI and the component swaps and really I just described what they did as disruptive. I think it I think it is a market disruptor for that very specific market. But I'm not an engine guy what's your take?

Steve Boecker 1:28:42

So so so so so we know the FT the F TI guys pretty well and I was um when I was first at at Delta before FTI became what they are today we did business with Fortress. We did quite a number of 2000 CF6 4000 inductions know the guys very very well really like them smart guys. Joe Adams, Dave Moreno, um Sam Hamood um you know Jeff Giuliano those guys those guys are smart they're really smart but as far as being a disruptor goes I know that they their competition feels that they're disruptors. But one thing I will say is this um they have be been innovative in their approach and I think that needs whenever you have a competitor one thing I learned years ago is respect your competition and understand why they're doing what they're doing. Doesn't make it right doesn't make it wrong it means understand them. They're doing it for a reason. Doesn't mean you have to buy into it it means you should you should understand why they're doing it. I think F TI falls smack dab in the middle of that. You look at F TI today that is not who they were a year and a half ago. Right. They have they have four shops they're supporting right they weren't in the MRO business a year and a half ago I mean I can remember um when they were pitching to us just the concept of the module storefront. Yeah okay we took a look at it both from a Delta perspective and uh an MRO perspective at the time and we couldn't make the numbers we couldn't make the numbers work maybe we're really close. But we didn't take anything negative from it at all. It was more like oh okay that's a that's an option that that that that that that you can have in the event that you want to do so. But now they've they've morphed into this mega company and now their their tentacles are in in many places. And so what obviously got everybody's attention was okay data centers. Okay they would use the CFM 567B as as a ground based turbine for data centers. And so it was like whoa okay that's that's interesting again the devil's in the detail and you know we had a discussion with them and you know this is they're very focused on on this and I'm I'm not saying anything that they have not said in the public domain right and so um we yeah at when I was at Delta we met with them at uh at the MRO in Orlando had a good meeting they gave us an update um very aggressive very ambitious um and they are moving forward and they made an announcement um uh uh during uh farnborough week that that they're the the their uh um uh the the mobile transport that they're gonna use for this so and that's that's the next piece of this so i I would say I think the jury's out in terms of the ultimate success as it relates to FTI I think they deserve respect for thinking outside the box being innovative yes in a traditional sense they have they have uh shaken the tree of their competitors and it's making them uneasy because they're like hey this is not how we normally do things and so I'm like okay well let's see what happens the truth you know the the proof is in the pudding um but but but but again I mean we've gotten to know these guys at F TI very well we trust them and we like them. And they've been they've been I mean I've I I personally know know these guys and and I'm very interested to see what happens next. So to to to say that I don't know I don't know if I yeah you know they're in this or that or the other I'm like let's see what happens because boy they're out there now and and they're being very aggressive and they are impacting the industry. They are because they're they're one of the entities out there snagging up engines um at some would say prices that are higher than market or should be and that's what part of what pe what's upsetting people is what they call it the F TI factor.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:33:03

The F TI guys are doing it well I'm not gonna say that's yes no or maybe I'm saying it's it it's a fact that they are absolutely out there in in that space um and they they are a factor as far as their success goes I mean so far they've they've been successful so far look let's see where we are a year from now and are are they the same company are they the same size are they growing have they shrunk have they been successful are they profitable let's see what happens but I think I think they deserve respect in terms of being innovative and developing a product that that they had the concept of and it was like okay that's interesting and there's a lot of people who feel one way or the other and I'm just saying that let's see what happens did um the the CFMs that they're using for the data centers are those only 7Bs do do you read to my and again I'm um I'm I I believe so if I'm not mistaken I'm not certain I I I believe so well Steve we've been at it for a little over an hour and a half so oh my goodness I know I know and I think we could probably keep going for a while but yeah we could um you know in in keeping uh kind of thinking about time and stuff like that I think we'll we'll uh we will call it a day but uh I did want to thank you for a tremendous podcast with us today. It's been I learned some things from you which is fantastic because I've known you for so long but I learned some things which is awesome.

Steve Boecker 1:34:36

So um thanks for taking the time to talk to us today talk to us listen thank you very much and thank you both for for reaching out to me it's been a great opportunity to you know not many people get a chance to talk about their career very much to the degree that I did and and I I really appreciate that but you know I'm gonna finish up with one with one comment and and uh as it relates I talked a little bit about it but giving back to an industry that gave a lot to me you know I do a lot with Ember Riddle I do a lot with the the ISTET foundation board um that matters greatly to me because when I was young in the industry I wasn't sure how to engage and so I've made it um my purpose to um to engage through those platforms to give back to the younger generation which I truly enjoy. Yeah which is fantastic and you're right because it's true there's not you know I I think that's one of the things that's kind of grown over the years is the fact that you have people that are willing to share their experiences with the younger generations because you do have a ton of people that are so excited to be a part of aviation but they don't really know how to maneuver and how to go about doing what to move up and to learn and so it's fantastic that you know we've got people like you that are out there that are like alright here is here is the things that I did don't do that right and that's a long list by the way sounds like a great title for your your memoir oh my god don't don't do anything good yeah and there were stories that that were not repeatable on the on the side well I for one learned a lot about presidential airways it was it was a it was a great time it was I mean and by the way people forget when we got the when I was at presidential we got BAE 146's brand new and your turbo you have to like owning 502 that's right that's right and no travers yeah that's right you have to buy three for the price of one to be able to keep it what a what a what a great experience it was it was it was awesome yeah well thanks again Steve Dublin Copenhagen I'm gonna be there for a week like I'm definitely checking a bag nope you can get four days out of a good piece of underwear this is why I don't travel with you I know yeah at the hotel nobody should travel with me do you have quirks yeah uh we all have our little like what are your quirks I'll tell you my quirks if you tell me your quirks I like to