David Chandler 0:00

I know what I was doing when I was 18 and I don't want to be judged by it. So why would I judge other people by what they were doing when I was that needs to be on a bumper sticker if they still have this stick?

Courtney Miller 0:18

This is the Time on Wing Podcast. Welcome back. I'm Courtney Miller with Visual Approach Analytics with me, Garrick DeChabon of Collateral Verifications. Garrick, who are we talking to today? Good morning, Courtney!

Gueric Dechavanne 0:33

This fine day, uh, we are speaking with uh two people. We've got a team uh on today, which is uh David Chandler and Charles Duncan. We'll we'll go with uh we'll start with uh David Chandler, who is currently the associate dean of executive programs at the University of Colorado Denver Business School. He is also the program director for CU Denver of the Executive MBA, I think Executive MBA program, and also executive MBA program at Aviation. He is also a professor of management for CU Denver. He is a published author. Uh, he's written uh Sustainable Value Creation and Strategic Corporate Social Responsibility. He's got a PhD in management from the University of Texas at Austin, he's got a Master of Science in East Asian Business from the University of Sheffield, got a Master of Science in MS and Management from the University of Texas in Austin. He also has a Bachelor's of Arts in American Studies from the University of Kent, and he's got an MBA from the University of Miami Herbert Business School. And then we also have Charles Duncan. Um Charles Duncan is uh so currently he's a professor at University of North Carolina. He is uh also a senior advisor for Altitudex Aviation Group. Uh prior to that, he was president and executive advisor for North Atlantic Airways. Um he's had a variety of roles with Westjack Group, including EVP, Chief Strategy Officer, President. He was also an SVP and a VP of technical operations for United Airlines. He's got a bunch of roles, including President and CEO for Continental Micronesia. He's had a bunch of roles in revenue management and marketing planning for Asia Pacific for Continental Airlines. And he also has an MBA from Harvard Business School and a BA in Economics and International Studies from UNC. So we've got a couple of scholars with us today. So Charles and David, this is your time on away. So before we get on with our guests, which you guys are gonna absolutely love, we obviously, you know, first of all, we want to thank all our listeners for listening to us and making the show what it is today. And we certainly welcome any of you to whenever you see us at conferences, just please say hello. And uh, we'd love to hear that you guys are listening and and fans of the show. You know, as you all know, we do run businesses, and uh so from my end at collateral verifications. Uh, you know, on the appraisal side, right? Obviously, if you have any needs when it comes to aircraft, engine, landing gear, you name it, right? Just please feel free to reach out. You know, I'm very approachable. I'm happy to chat about any kind of projects, and we'd love to work with you on uh a variety of things. We do have some publications out there as well, like the Turban Turban Aircraft Guide, TurboProp Value Guide, I've got the aircraft rating tool. So there's various publications that we put together that can kind of help you on your day-to-day. Great reference points. Um, so definitely, you know, kind of reach out to us and we'd love to chat and kind of start that relationship with you.

Courtney Miller 3:16

Okay, back to the show.

Gueric Dechavanne 3:18

David and Charles, thank you very much for joining us on the podcast. It's really nice to have you here. And uh, you know, as as you know, for those of you that listen, you know, as you guys know, we always start with kind of uh getting to know our guests a little bit better and getting to understand where the passion is for aviation and where how their path came about to come to what they are doing today. So uh maybe we'll start with David and just kind of get your take on obviously you've been a scholar for almost all your life, right? It feels like. Um so I'd love to hear kind of where where that came about in terms of you know the the the need for or the thirst for more knowledge and then how that brought you you know to what you were doing today in aviation. So I'd love to start with that and then we'll move on to Charles.

David Chandler 4:04

Um great. Well, thank you both, Courtney and Garrett, for having us. Um it's a real honor to be here and yes, happy to share a little bit about what we're doing. Charles and I am with the executive MBA in aviation at the University of Colorado, Denver. So my route to this place in time is somewhat convoluted. I didn't actually start my PhD till I was 35. So I have about 12 to 15 years of experience. I was gonna say professional experience then, but I'm just gonna call it experience. Um before I started my PhD, uh when I'm now fifty-seven, I moved to Denver to become a an assistant professor in 2011. So I've been uh in my current business school for 15 years. Um prior to that, um moved around quite a bit. As you may be able to tell, I'm British born. Um it's not always obvious. I think my wife tells me I'm losing my accent all the time, but it's still there, it's still a little bit there.

Charles Duncan 5:02

Don't worry, don't worry.

Courtney Miller 5:03

Keep talking to Americans, you'll feel better.

David Chandler 5:05

Um so British born, but spend a lot of time, and actually one of the most things I'm most proud of in my life is that I've lived for over a decade on three different continents. Spent a lot of time in Asia, obviously spending uh growing up in the UK, and then here in the US since uh 2002. I originally came to the US to do my uh MBA at the University of Miami um just after 9-11, obviously, so uh staying in the US afterwards was was challenging. But what I found most interesting about my MBA was the the professors that I had the most respect for, the classes that I enjoyed the most, they seemed really happy. And so I asked them why why are you guys so happy? And they told me about this career called academia. Um and and it was really after learning about that that I thought about doing a PhD. And it's not that it was uh necessarily the ideal that I was working towards, so much as I started eliminating all the other possibilities. And as uh I started to eliminate those, the one that was left seemed to be both uh both to respect a curious mind, that inquisitive nature that I think is is built in. I don't know that you can uh acquire that. Um but it also had the flexibility that I appreciate. And so the ability to research what you think is important as opposed to work on behalf of somebody else is a really attractive part of academia um and something that that drew me in. But I think in general, after my life, there hasn't been a plan. I've been in plenty of job interviews where people have looked at my resume and said, This doesn't make any sense to me. Um it's just like I joined the club, man.

Courtney Miller 6:44

Yeah. I've just got to be like that in itself is its own line item on a resume that just will not make sense to you.

David Chandler 6:51

Well, and we'll get into what is it that corporations want from their employees. I hear often that they're interested in well-rounded three-dimensional people, but I see them hiring two-dimensional experts all the time. And so that conflict is perhaps a big part of this conversation as we um as we get into it as well. But there's no, there's never really been a plan. It's just um what comes next? What's the most interesting thing that comes next? And for a big part of my life, that involved moving to a different continent.

Courtney Miller 7:22

Interesting. I love it. I love it. What's interesting?

unknown 7:26

Yeah.

Courtney Miller 7:27

I mean that's that's that's always that's kind of the life uh the the life objective to to put. Like what do you do? I do whatever's interesting.

David Chandler 7:36

And I do that on a daily basis too. My my definition of a successful day is I have more meetings that are interesting than less interesting than boring. So if I have more meetings that are boring in a given day, my day's not gone well. But if my my I've had more interesting meetings in a day, then I've had a good day.

Courtney Miller 7:53

I'm sensing a TED talk for me here, right? Like you could do like this the David Chandler productivity system. And I just I go down and I I list what's what's the most interesting thing and I do that. I love it.

Gueric Dechavanne 8:06

So Charles, you're you're a bit more aviation focused. Um a little bit, right? You you've you've hit a few.

Charles Duncan 8:13

So, Garrick, I mean, I I would say if you know when you look at my resume, there there's no quest, it's just it's aviation. You know, that that's it, very single-mindedly so. Uh, but you know, like and if you roll back in terms of what got me interested in it, um, I'm a Navy brat. My dad uh was uh you know career navy officer and spent most of his career on aircraft carriers. And so that that's probably the start of it. I mean, being a young kid, being on the flight deck and and seeing the uh the flight activity. And then maybe more specific in terms of what sort of piqued my interest or got me into it, um, we were stationed in Naples, Italy when I was really young. Uh, and this was in the early 80s. Um, uh, and every summer I would fly as an unaccompanied minor, and I'm talking like six, seven years old, to see my grandparents in Alabama. And uh, and so just that that act of being a UM, as they're still called, the unaccompanied minor. And it was uh typical in TWA and flying from Fumacino and Rome over to JFK and then connecting down to Atlanta uh as a six-year-old, I think kind of opened my eyes to the magic of aviation and uh and and what goes on. And I've sort of just been smitten uh ever since. And and just to tag on uh to one thing David said, I think it's sort of interesting and seeing these professors who were happy with their academic careers. Uh, I mean, I'm I'm a big subscriber in that as well. My wife tells me all the time uh that uh very few people you know are are you know enjoy their work in the way that I do, right? I roll out of bed and I just can't wait to go to work. And I just love even now, 30 years after starting in the business, uh it's still fun, it's still interesting, and and I'm having a ball. So yeah.

Courtney Miller 9:58

Yeah, yeah. Wait, is that uh Garek? Is that how you feel about appraising every morning? Every day. And when I wake up in the morning, yeah, yeah, I can't wait.

Gueric Dechavanne 10:06

No, it is and look, it is fun. I will say the the one thing about this industry, right, is that it's never a boring moment, right? And if that if it is, then you're doing something wrong. Um, because it's true, right? Every day you wake up and you're like, okay, new project could be interesting. It could be just you know another project that you've done a thousand times before, and you're like, all right, you know, whatever it is, but then you usually end up talking to somebody or commenting to through with somebody on email, or so it's always, yeah, it's always interesting. Um but so so Charles, from your standpoint, like you're you've obviously worked for you know a variety of airlines, right? So what kind of led you to go from that to more you know education?

Charles Duncan 10:46

Yeah, well, um it look, it's it's a great question, Garrick. Um, I what I would say is that uh I mean well, one, I mean, I I'm I'm really excited to partner with David, and and maybe we can get into it too. We've got we've got a real cast of folks from Oscar Munoz, uh the former CEO of United, uh Sabone Karnick, who was a former guest on your podcast uh a while back, and a and a close friend of mine, and many other uh folks who are involved in the program. So it's a real privilege to do so. Um and and uh you know I I enjoy being an adjunct professor. I I teach in a few other programs or have taught over the years. Um it's not my full-time gig by by any stretch, but um, you know, I've kind of gotten to the point in my career where uh I mean, you know, I have a lot to share, and I'm happy to sort of give back and share that knowledge. And and and I I find I get as much, I learn as much from the students as I'm able to share, you know, in the other direction. And so so I get a lot of fulfillment from it. And and uh and and when David approached me about this executive MBA in aviation, you know, there isn't anything like this, you know, uh in the industry. I was happy to uh sign up and share some time to help you know shape the program, but also um take a hand in teaching a course. I'll be teaching an aviation strategy course uh next spring as part of the program.

Gueric Dechavanne 12:06

So actually, so David, I'd love to kind of get your your take on, you know, so you've gone, you you've had most of your career in aviation, or I'm sorry, in in uh in in your in basically studies and everything else. So how and you approached Charles about aviation. So where did aviation come in for you? Where did that come from where all of a sudden you were like, oh yeah, we should have we should start this program in aviation when you really haven't had that background. So where did that come from?

David Chandler 12:36

Well, so and I and it's one thing that Charles said that really resonated with me as a child. I moved to Hong Kong when I was nine. Eight, eight, seven, eight, nine, something like that. Um we lived there for three years. My dad, when when it was still a British colony, my dad worked for British Rail, he went out to Hong Kong to to electrify the railway, actually, um, in Hong Kong. But I remember A, flying on 747s into the old Kytak Airport, which was the runway strip out into the uh the waterway. Yes. And because I I I my parents split up while they were in Hong Kong and I moved back to the UK, but I would go back every year, similarly, Charles, as an unaccompanied minor with my sister, younger sister on these 747s. Amazing. Um, and so that that that not so much the the plane itself, but being able to transport myself to a completely different culture and experience that culture at such a formative age, I think really shaped my worldview ever since. And so it's not the functionality of how do you get from point A to point B, but it's the fact that aviation enables that that travel, that that trap that range of experiences that really so that's been a long-term imprint on me, Garrett, uh growing up. That's not the reason why we started the executive NBA in aviation, though.

Courtney Miller 13:52

Um so when you were when you were 10 on that flight to Hong Kong, you weren't like, you know what? Yeah, yeah.

David Chandler 13:57

You know what's something the industry needs?

Courtney Miller 13:59

Yes.

David Chandler 14:00

When I when I have the ability to do it, I'm gonna I'm having a napkin. Yeah, yeah, no, no. Waving through the smoke-filled air, which uh was the case on 747 for that.

Charles Duncan 14:12

Yeah, yeah.

David Chandler 14:15

Um no, more recently, I think it's tied up to the conversation that we're having in this country around what is a university, what is education, and what's the value of a degree. And I think as it's a very complicated question, it's a valid question, and it's something that I think universities have taken for granted for too long. So the fact that we're being our feet are being held to the fire on this, I think is is really important because it's gonna spur innovation. Because um one of the answers to that for the business school in a university, I think, is to support the uh economic drivers of the region in which they're located. And it just so happens that in Denver, Colorado, the most important economic driver is Denver International Airport. And so forming those connections with those key, you know, we have a we have a long-standing uh presence in healthcare, for example, which is uh a huge part of the economy nationwide, of course. And we have a very big um research health hospital here as part of our university. So so forming that relationship with the airport was something that has always struck me as being something that would be advantageous to do. The idea for the um uh the degree itself, it it came really as a result of a lot of fortuitous things that happened to happen at the same time. I think if we'd sat down and planned this and said, okay, we need to do this and we need to have that and we need to make the connections with this person, it would have taken us ten years to implement because of things that were happening fortuitously at the same time, we went from zero to launch in under two years, probably close to 18 months, which in academic terms is lightning speed. But I think it's to do with um the need for us to innovate, to justify the social value that we create as a as a business school, as a university. I think doing things like this, partnering with major industries, supporting the needs in that industry and helping them become more successful is something that business schools absolutely need to be doing.

Courtney Miller 16:16

And the the program is different. So when I think of of kind of graduate programs, I tend to split them into executive, which are more later stage or mid-stage, say later, but mid-stage career, as opposed to um I would call it the traditional, where you kind of go from undergraduate straight to graduate. Um but this program is is different, right? You you focus more on the the professionals, the established professionals today. Very much.

David Chandler 16:48

Yeah, very much. And it's part-time, so that means that people don't need to interrupt their career in order to do this degree. Whereas a lot of degrees, graduate degrees are full-time, where you it's really hard to be working a full-time job at the same time. I I'd say uh Courtney, if if lifelong learning is the goal, then there's a mix of different tools that can facilitate that that learning over the the period of a career. Some of them are full-time degrees, some of the part-time degrees, some of them are shorter certificates or programs, some of them are scheduled in the evening, some during the day, some go straight through, and they all serve different purposes. And I think sometimes what business schools have not been very good at is articulating the different roles of different degrees or programs at different stages in people's career. So, in my personal opinion, I don't think anyone should be doing an MBA in their twenties. I just don't think that's what an MBA is designed to do. We have plenty of MS and MA degrees, Master of Science, Master of Arts degrees that can help you become an expert during the twenties to help you fully understand the area of business that you choose to focus in. But an MBA is it's a it's a generalist degree. It teaches you how to be a leader of an organization. And I just don't think that's appropriate when you're 22, 23, 24. I mean, of course, there are some people who go off and start their own companies, but for them, maybe an entrepreneurship degree would be a better fit to help them understand what it takes to if you're if you're wanting to run a substantive organization like a large organization, an MBA is the perfect degree for that. But I think there's a stage in your career where you're gonna get the most value out of that, and that's definitely later on in your career. And so to your point, Courtney, um the average age of the students in the first cohort of the degree is 40. Um for the the traditional executive MBA we have downtown, um it's 42. So these are people who are incredibly accomplished, 15 to 20 years of professional experience already, and that changes the nature of the conversation in the classroom. Back to Charles's point earlier about how he learns a lot from the students as well as giving to the students.

Charles Duncan 18:55

Absolutely.

David Chandler 18:55

That only comes if you have people who've got things to give, and that's a function of time, uh, experience and wisdom, right? As you trial and error, you make mistakes, you learn, you become much better at it. That life experience um uh feeds into the conversation in the classroom. And I say to prospects all the time, you need to be learning as much from the people around you as you are from the person who's standing at the front of the room. That's an effective executive degree, and it feels much more like a conversation among colleagues than it does any kind of lecture from professor to student.

Charles Duncan 19:30

Yeah. Hey, I you know, I'll jump in. I'm just just reflecting on what you said there, David. Uh, I guess when I got my undergraduate degree, I was lucky enough to jump right into Continental Airlines, and you know, as more and more time passes, people don't you know, I find more people don't even know what Continental was, but you know, ultimately was you know merged into United, headquartered in Houston. And and um I was hired into a summer class of MBA hires, and I was just sort of almost this, you know, this lucky exception um uh to join that group. And and and by after two weeks, uh I I realized um to get ahead, uh, whatever this MBA thing is, I'm gonna need to go do it. And so I wasn't 22 or 23, but I was, you know, later in my 20s, uh, you know, and I'd begun my work at Continental and uh had some good success. But I also sort of realized that um I was, you know, to continue moving up, I you know, I would need the MBA. And I really enjoyed it uh tremendously. But I guess I enrolled in 20 at 27, 28 or 28, 29, right in that range. And and uh and I clearly see the benefits of what you're saying. I mean, uh, you know, of ultimately getting, you know, being a general manager and a leader, and if you have even more experience, um uh you can just soak up and learn so much more with that experience uh you know a bit a bit later in in career. And I certainly see that in our current students, you know, the current cohort of that average age of 40 and what they've done and just having more experience, and and uh you're able to have really meaningful uh discussion and conversations with them based on that experience because they've been out there and they lived it.

David Chandler 21:01

So so uh it's it's a it's a within subject effect, right? So however brilliant Charles Duncan is at 24, he's more brilliant and wise at 29, and he's more brilliant and wise at 36, and he's more brilliant and wise at 42.

Courtney Miller 21:15

I wish I wish it was universal to everybody. How do you how do you do that? I feel like I'd be dumber every year. Yeah, I think you peak at some point, right?

Gueric Dechavanne 21:23

Yeah, it was about 24.

Courtney Miller 21:26

Yeah, um yeah. But yeah, no, no, you're it's a that it's a very it's a valid point. It's that experience, right? It's the w you use the word wisdom. I really like that.

David Chandler 21:35

Right. Because because I think in society we over-privilege youth and IQ, and we underprivilege age and experience and wisdom.

Courtney Miller 21:46

Interesting. And uh you just you know, you just described Garrick and I. Yeah, we have you on the podcast.

David Chandler 21:57

And so and I I just think the conversation is Is very different. And I and I do think there are there are other degrees that serve different purposes and different ages. Now, for that whole what that framework that I just mapped out for it to work, everybody needs to fully understand that. The students need to understand that. The organizations, what they reward, need to understand that. And the business schools, how they structure their degrees and programs and and present them to s to prospective students. Everyone needs to be fully on board for that. And I see distortions all the time. The challenge of business schools is I think the incentives have become distorted over time, and the MBA has become a a um uh just a guaranteed generator of revenue. And so we've taken it for granted and lost track lost sight, I believe, of what an MBA truly does and how it's different from an MS and an MA.

Courtney Miller 22:47

We haven't spent a lot of time on this podcast talking about uh the education process it it in part of the the larger career career process. Yeah. Um and at the same time, and it's funny because we've we had a pre-call and we went on forever and ever talking uh talking about uh kind of these dynamics. At the same time, we talked about the challenges of recruitering, uh recruiting and talent, um uh building that talent and developing and bringing the team, and there's there's a bit of a split between those two ideas and mentalities that something like an executive uh MBA kind of seeks to bridge. I'm really interested, kind of from that perspective, the I mean give who's who's the give me the anecdotal person. Like give me the give me their career path where you're like, here's kind of where they hit, and they're the perfect candidate to be thinking about something like this. What's that user story like? Yeah.

David Chandler 23:56

Charles, do you want to go with that first? Uh you because you you live this to some degree.

Charles Duncan 24:00

Yeah, well, you know, uh, I I mean I'm happy to take a stab at it. Maybe we both can. It's a good question. It's a really great question. But you know, I also think David can can be grounded um and knows the current students better than I do. Uh, you know, I mean, I I've had uh you know some interactions, but David's been living the program from day one. Um listen, you know, I mean, I I um the way you were framing the question, Courtney, and I appreciate I mean I'm a regular listener, so it's really fun to be on this podcast. And I would almost say truly, um, but it and when I sit back, I mean, uh you guys cover the industry really, really well, right? I mean, I think about Brian Reynott, who introduced us from the leasing side, or Sabod Karnick, who's you know, a mentor and friend of mine, also involved in this program. He was a great interview, you know, and I was reliving a lot of his experience uh and some of our shared experience. I think of Eric Tanner, formerly up at Flair. That was a great interview. I mean, you know, I learned so much from him. Um, another one, and I'll stop, but I mean that Ryan Gopel at Global Cross the range, and and those are just the ones off the top of my head, right? Um, I learned so much from those interviews. So I think in a way, you like this Time One Wing podcast is is, whether it's intentional or not, serving an educational purpose for the industry, right? You know, so you're opening people's eyes and and you know, and and broadening people who are, I mean, already, let's face it, pre, you know, I'm sure everyone who listens is an Av Geek, you know, and has like their narrow focus and sort of, you know, but you're broadening the aperture of people. Because I learned from every single one of those guests. And I think one of the things that's um so great about our industry, or I think why it retains people for so long, is it is so complex. Nobody can ever understand all of it. And even, you know, for me, 30 years in, I'm still learning new things, right? Um, and and and I'll never stop with that. And I remember, you know, again, I've had the privilege of working for a lot of great CEOs, and I realized, you know, they don't know it all either, right? I mean, you know, um and the good ones know they don't know it, too. That's absolutely can delegate and can own that, you know, and so on. And so look, I mean, so sort of having said that and maybe answering your question a bit more directly, I mean, you know, I I think in terms of like the the you know, the the archetype or the perfect you know student coming in, you know, as David said, you know, it's more experienced, but someone who who like the beauty of the MBA to me is, you know, you're you're going to come out um of the program with a degree, but you're going to um you know have a, you're not gonna be an expert in areas, but let's say you you know you come in as a marketing person or a salesperson or someone with airport office experience, you're gonna graduate 18 months later and have a much deeper appreciation of many, many other areas. You know, you'll even a little bit what you know. Again, not be an expert or a pro, but then be better prepared to make a jump from from you know across silos, if you will, you know, from one side or even one part of the industry to another, um, you know, in that sense. And so, I mean, I think that to me is the beauty of the degree. It's also a chance to learn from classmates and bounce ideas off of each other, you know, work on projects in an educational um way. And I'll tell you, like, the maturity of the students is such that you know, they're reaching out to me and emailing and and you know, getting advice and and kind of using networks in ways that the 20-year-old version of myself wouldn't have been comfortable doing. Right. They are, right? And and they know what they're you know, what what their ambitions are and where they want to go and how the degree and the program can be a springboard for them. So I think it is different for each student what they want and what they want to get out of it, but broadly it's it's getting a deeper appreciation in many, many areas, you know, academic areas. So, I mean, I if I'm a salesperson, I'm gonna learn about finance, I'm gonna learn about strategy, I'll maybe I know a bit about negotiations, but I'll get a better understanding of ops and and how that works. And so I'll be a more well-rounded, you know, uh employee person, you know, future executive coming out of it, um, as as one example, right? So uh and and that's that that that to me is the beauty of it.

Courtney Miller 28:06

Um, and and people can, you know, um I want to save the well-rounded comment because I think we're gonna talk about that a lot later. But I'm curious, David, to get to get your your thought there.

David Chandler 28:18

Yeah, it's interesting because um we've very much appealed to cohort one, the members of cohort one, and these early cohorts to come help us build this. You know, right now for the downtown program that I always also oversee executive MBA program, traditional executive MBA program that I oversee, we're recruiting for cohort 46. That's because the program started in 1981. And I often think, what is this executive MBA in aviation gonna look like when we're recruiting cohort 46? And whatever it becomes, however it evolves, I think we're gonna look back to these early cohorts and say they were the foundation piece, they helped shape this. And so there's an interesting conversation that's that's been prompted by the students early on about the identity of the degree. To what extent are we helping people move into uh aviation? And to what extent are we helping people move up within aviation? And I think it's uh something that will be that will tell tell time will tell to some degree. I think the majority of people need to be embedded in aviation to start with. But I think if we have 15-20% of people who are coming from outside aviation, then they bring new ideas, they bring stimulation that the industry can benefit from, and they should be seen as an asset because of that. But then what does it mean to be embedded within aviation? Like we think of airlines and airports, and that's pretty easy. You could think of air traffic controllers, and that would be pretty obviously there. But what about the people who write the insurance contracts for airplanes? If they're specializing in aviation insurance, uh are they in the industry too? What about the people who handle the the adverts in the airport in the terminals? Are they part of aviation or are they just marketing advertising people who could advertise anywhere? There's lawyers, uh even the people, the caterers who put food on the plane. Like in my view, if you're committed to the aviation ecosystem for your career, then you're a good fit for this program. However tangential it might be in terms of, well, I don't work for an airline or I don't work for an airport. So other than that, the demographics that Charles mentioned, that 15 uh ideally 10 years plus, 15 to 20 is the average of professional years' professional experience. We obviously have a huge number of veterans who are who are interested. What I what I've learned as we've um uh as I've learned more about aviation and we were preparing for this degree, is that each of the armed services all put an airplane in the air. It's not just the Air Force. That's right. They all they all put an airplane up there, and so the infrastructure that's required to do that has a civilian corollary, right? A mirror role. And so for people who are leaving the services and want to continue in the aviation industry um in the civilian in their civilian life, then we can offer that sort of transition knowledge as well. So I think it's a I mean it I'm trying not to say everybody, Courtney, when you say who's a good fit for this degree. I mean, it's not just everybody in the whole world. That that that commitment and passion for aviation needs to be there. But I wouldn't I don't want to pigeonhole people and saying this is only airlines, this is only airports. I mean, I want trade unionists in the cohort because it's such an important part of the industry. I want environmental activists in there, people who might campaign against increased airline travel or something. I think the more voices there are in the cohort, the more valuable the conversation, and the closer we can get to the optimal learning environment. Now those those different perspectives cause tension. And so it needs to be wrapped within a respectful intellectual conversation. But the idea that different people have very different perspectives to add, and to Charles' point, that's really what we're delivering. We're delivering an understanding of those different points of view. So if you're an air traffic controller and you come to this program, we're not going to make you any better at guiding airplanes. You know how to do that, you're already an expert in that. But what we can do is introduce you to in a l little bit to every other aspect of the ecosystem so that when you become a leader in your organization, you understand the points of view of everybody else who's involved in this very, very complex network.

Courtney Miller 32:34

Yeah, the so from a former employee perspective, um, you know, I can kind of see this path where you hit middle management, manager, maybe director level, and the idea is where am I gonna find that career competitive edge? Right? I love that term, competitive edge. And traditionally, the idea of a degree is to get the piece of paper that you can shove in somebody's face and see and say, look, I've got the paper, now give me the next job. This is not that, right? This is the exact opposite of that, which is hey, I'm curious. I want to learn, I want to broaden the horizons. I want to engage with the things that I don't know. I it's that it's that curiosity. That then builds the wisdom. It it kind of it kind of puts structure to the wisdom, right? To the experience. Well, here you go. It takes experience and structures it into wisdom. You can use that one. That's a good one. That's right.

David Chandler 33:40

But the idea Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. The way I I put this, and I say this to every um incoming cohort at orientation, it's not having an MBA that matters, it's getting an MBA.

Courtney Miller 33:51

Yeah.

David Chandler 33:52

And so you have to invest in the world. Which is different. Right, right. It's a different mindset.

Courtney Miller 33:56

Yeah.

David Chandler 33:57

Because if you're just interested in having the MBA, then you just care about the piece of paper, and that may open some doors for you. What it doesn't do is help you once you walk through that door. Because then you're on your own and you have to demonstrate your value to the organization that you've just joined. And if you haven't invested in the process, the the education of getting the MBA, then you're not going to be any better off than you were before the degree if you just focus on the piece of paper. So the piece of paper has value. It's not either or it's and, I think. I agree. And and people definitely see it as a signal. Charles, you said you felt you needed this to get to the next level. And that's partly knowledge, but it's partly the signal to everybody else and your colleagues that you've done something, you've achieved something, and it means it means something, right? Um, so it should be a signal, it should be a substantive signal as opposed to a superficial signal.

Charles Duncan 34:46

And and this is this is not right or or good, but I mean in the way Courtney described it, I mean, I've seen in this middle manager world and you know, various airlines and whatnot where I've worked, in some cases the MBA degree is a prerequisite, you know, either required or highly recommended or whatnot. And so it can be a filtering device for you know applying for internal roles or even external. Um and I've seen sort of over my career the pendulum swing back and forth. And for some hiring managers, it's really important to have the degree. For others, they they really couldn't care less. And I've seen plenty of people who've done well uh you know in their careers with the high school uh you know education beyond. You know, so so it's not to say that one must have this, but boy, I mean, there there are there's a lot of great value from it. I mean, you you learn a ton, as we said, and and I love that the way you framed it. It's the getting the degree, you know. I mean, the journey you go through and the learning and so on, you're better prepared to be a leader and and uh Charles, this is this is a really important point because from the organization point of view, I agree there are some organizations where it's a requirement to get past a certain level. Yes.

David Chandler 35:46

But those organizations who often may provide some tuition support for their employees to go get the degree, they don't differentiate among programs. Their assumption is that an MBA is an MBA, and as long as you've got one, you can advance to the next level. And that could not be further from the truth. Um because if that is true, an MBA, then I've just been wasting my time over the last two years because I've been working really hard to differentiate this program and make sure it's fully substantive and meaningful, and the opportunities that we're presenting to the students are opportunities they could not get anywhere else. And so the I what what annoys me about organizations and the way they approach formal education is that they really don't differentiate. That an MBA is just an MBA and it doesn't matter where you get it. And that's um that's completely wrong. I don't know you you think of organizations and the care they take when they're investing in infrastructure or assets or the future, they don't think about their employees investing in their employees in the same way they do do. And they don't demand an ROI that's easily um identifiable, and they don't care about the quality so much, some, not all. They don't care about the quality of the experience. But that's the only thing that matters. And the piece of paper in itself is is meaningless to some degree if you just phoned it in during your time. Um it's the experience that is everything about the formal education. Uh but I don't see organizations appreciating that or taking the time to say, hey, we'll give you as an employee, we'll give you some money to go do a degree if you want, but we'll give you more if you go to this program. Because we know we've taken the time, we know this program is delivering what we need you to get out of your this experience, and so we'll give you more money to go there and less money if you want to go and do something else. But I I don't I don't see that nuance and subtle distinction understanding of it's not it's not that s the degree doesn't matter, it's not a standardized degree. There is no body of knowledge that every MBA student has to get. That it just is not out there as a defined like if you go if you go be uh an architect, there's a body of knowledge that all architects need to know because if they don't know it, buildings fall down. And equally with a medical doctor, there's a you need to know certain things or else people die on the operating term um table. When we're producing business managers, leaders, that doesn't exist. That agreement about a body of knowledge doesn't exist. So you if you if you go off and you've got an idea for a new um uh company, good luck. If you cause harm in the process, well that's just the the the pros and cons that we we're happy to accept as society because you might be the next Google.

Courtney Miller 38:30

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Chandler 38:32

But you also you might cause immense harm. And we there's no gatekeeper there. There's no gatekeeper saying, sorry, we know that you've got a certain body of knowledge and we're not gonna let you do this until you've passed certain tests. But the MBA was originally designed to do that back in the 1940s and 1950s, but it didn't evolve that way. And now it you it the idea originally with an MBA was that you could only call yourself a manager if you had an MBA. And there would be a strong certification process around what knowledge was taught to you during that MBA in the same way it exists today for architects, it exists for doctors and any other profession. But being a manager is not a profession. It was never you there's no certification that you need in order to call yourself a man. Anybody can do it. But we don't allow that with doctors, we don't allow that with architects, and because we're worried about the consequences of people doing it badly. We don't worry about that with entrepreneurs or business people, and that's what makes America such an amazing entrepreneurial society, but it also causes it can lead to the immense harm that businesses can create as well as the immense good that they can create.

Gueric Dechavanne 39:43

So, David, based on all that, right, that you just talked about, um I'd love to know how did you come about creating the curriculum for this first cohort, right, to be able to so that when they come out of it, right? They're because you have to start somewhere, right? So, how how to walk us through that process?

David Chandler 40:04

Um we went and asked professionals, people like Charles, we formed a curriculum advisory board, all the people who have immense experience in the industry, and we asked them what needs to be included. We gave them a list of these are the kinds of courses that might appear in an MBA. What is where where where are those where do those courses apply and where do they need to be tweaked to re represent the the idiosyncrasies of the aviation uh industry and ecosystem? So this curriculum, very importantly, is not uh me in my ivory tower saying this is what I think the aviation industry needs to know. This is it aviation experts telling me this is what uh needs to be taught. And and and that's it it's an iterative process because you can come up with the subject, but then there's the the the difficult the the details of what actually you're gonna teach week in and week out. And we've employed instructional designer, professional help to help a lot of our instructors because at least someone like Charles has teaching experience and so he understands the concept of a three-credit course, the narrative that needs to be um that that a that a course needs to uh hold within it, uh like a beginning, a middle and an end with clear learning goals and takeaways. Not all of our teachers are there because they've uh been in aviation for decades. Um but there there's a there's a there's a difficult process of deciding what is actually taught in each of these courses, and we provided them with a lot of technical teaching support to do that, to harness all of their knowledge and fit it into a seven-week course. But I think crucially, Garrick, the the key is that it wasn't up to me. It was up we we we reached out to industry experts who told us this is what the industry needs leaders to know.

unknown 41:49

Yeah.

Charles Duncan 41:49

Hey, and if I can just build on it, Garrick, uh what and and I joined um the program and David reached out to me after a lot of it was was was built, you know, the the the more more than the bones and the frame the framework of of the coursework. So I I can't take any credit for this when there was a whole huge group, uh, you know, as you said, of advisors from the industry. But what we've come out with is um seven-week terms where there's two two classes being taught simultaneously. And and in every one of these terms, um, you have a traditional MBA topic. I guess so. Right now, the students are studying economics, and then they're also getting network planning, right? So that's so there's a there's an aviation uh topic being led typically by a practitioner who would just be from industry, deep experience, um, and then a more traditional academic, you know, teaching in it. So then the next term it might be marketing uh paired with, I don't know, you know, aviation finance, where we'll get into, you know, uh, you know, uh EETCs and you know various things or you know, airport bonds and you know, very specific.

David Chandler 42:52

C pricing is incredibly complex and fascinating.

Charles Duncan 42:55

Absolutely. But to me, that that's part of the real beauty is you have a traditional academic paired at the same time with uh with an aviation practitioner, and that sort of rolls through the whole program. The other piece in um the format, which is a bit different than your question around the content, I think is also really cool. It's a it's a combination, uh, you know, uh for each of these seven-week terms, there's one long weekend in Denver where um, you know, where the co you know the professors and the students are meeting together at the airport, and and the sponsorship with Denver International is uh um hard to overstate, you know, just just their their embeddedness into the program. So we meet in Denver once you know per per term. And then there are the more traditional um you know online sessions on weekends, you know, using Zoom and and uh you know and so forth. So it's kind of like it's a hybrid format of in person with online, um, but synchronous online uh where it's live. And then sprinkled through the program are four um uh you know, sort of field studies or or you know, off site trips. Resistences. Yeah, resistance, okay. Thank you. I couldn't, I missed that word. David, but four of these trips, one in DC, which has already happened, and then three more at uh sort of global airports to include uh places like Munich and Ontario, California, where they'll get their hands dirty, if you will. And I I joined for a day um the week in DC, and they're hearing from uh DOT lawyers and AV, you know, uh lobbyists you know who are working Capitol Hill and they're DSB with that.

David Chandler 44:22

It was fascinating.

Charles Duncan 44:24

And anyway, they got a really good exposure. Back to point, no one's gonna finish this program and be an expert on lobbying in DC, but they came away at least having met a lobbyist, having had a chance to ask a lot of questions and have an appreciation for how the sausage is made in DC from a policy-making point of view. You know, so it's really neat. This is sort of, in my mind, this combination of traditional academic with the industry perspectives, you know, both from the professors and the content, with this hybrid of in-person and virtual, along with these residencies where they get out and sort of literally hit the road, seeing it up close and touring airports and you know, um putting putting all the pieces together, so to speak.

David Chandler 45:02

Yeah, a little more on the uh residencies because uh actually the current uh aviation course is as uh Charles said is being taught by Bob Westgate, who did uh uh planning, route planning and scheduling for Hawaiian, network planning, the Hawaiian Airlines for a long time. So huge expertise. Next next term we have um airport management and operations taught by Sean Donahue, who was the CF CEO at DFW for 12 years. And the three residencies that follow that, so not the D the Washington DC residency that Charles referred to, but the three residencies after uh Sean's class um are all at different airports. And it's really to take what Sean's going to be teaching them in his class and see how it works in practice. And we've picked three different airports that um have different, they rely on different aspects of the model, the business model to um uh the as a as predicting their success. Some of them are turnaround stories, like they've had an airline hub that's that's gone away and they've had to reinvent themselves. Um Charles mentioned Munich, where we're going in October, um, as the international hub. So just very different profiles. And the idea if we ask the same question at each, which is basically how do you how do you do it here? How do you run this airport? Because the airports are so different themselves, the answer that's going to come back is very different. Like Charles at Ontario, which is coming up in March, really excited to better understand the the their the the importance of cargo um to their business model. And because they've got UPS, Amazon and FedEx all uh strongly represented at that airport and being able to tour those facilities and understand the role that cargo plays in their overall revenue driving um will be a feature of that of that um uh visit residency. Yeah.

Gueric Dechavanne 46:53

And so um it it seems like right at least right now there is a there's more of a focus with kind of airports and everything that goes around airports, right? Um We're gonna say aviation.

David Chandler 47:06

I am not because the airline piece that is currently being taught is purely airlines, uh planning and scheduling. How do how does an airline choose to identify two cities and to fly a plane between the two? And how does that work within their overall network? So um to the extent that everything starts and ends at an airport, yes, uh we uh that that's one way of looking at it. I want though to to keep pushing the idea of the ecosystem because I want that trade unionist there, because I want the air traffic controller there, because I want the the advertiser, the person who advertises in the terminals there, the the insurance person, the lawyer, uh the environmental activists, right? I want every voice in the room, so I want to be inclusive. And so to me, it's much bigger than an industry. It's an it's an ecosystem, a very convoluted network where there are lots and lots of people that that required for it to work.

Charles Duncan 47:59

Yeah. And I think Garrick, you're asking a great question. And yeah, I mean it it's not an executive MBA for airport people or for airline people or even for you know people from OEMs or less or I mean that is to be for everybody, right? And and we're we're as we're building the uh the curriculum, we're uh uh working really hard to be inclusive of you know all the different sides and and you know sort of stakeholders of the industry, if you will.

David Chandler 48:22

So and maybe back to the origin story a little bit too, because when my dean and I um were interviewing different individuals and organizations about this idea, and Oscar Munoz was a very key early person that we spoke to who helped shape what this has become, we talked to maybe 35 to 40 individuals and organizations, and what we heard was very strong consistently. First of all, the passion that everyone has for this industry, but also how siloed it is. And these silos exist because people have they know what they know and they have their point of view, and their goal is to try and ensure that happens. But so what we so we were thinking, so there are organizations that offer leadership development programs, for example, to their employees, and they do that with a view to make their employees a more effective uh person who belongs to that organization. We wanted to be sure we were doing something different. So we step back and looked at this from a macro level and say, if we think about the ecosystem as a whole, if we think if we understand that it's characterized by silos, then the role we play is helping build bridges across those silos. So if we can get an airlines person to understand the airport point of view and why cost per employment is such a contentious conversation among those two actors, if you can understand the other party's point of view, you're much more likely to make better decisions that will res uh that will arrive at a resolution much quicker and more of a win-win outcome, I believe, than if you just see your point of view and you don't care what anyone else thinks and you're just gonna ram it through.

Courtney Miller 49:59

Yeah, I want to kind of understand. So we talked a bit about from the student's perspective and why you would want to do this, but uh how about from the employer's perspective or from the company's perspective? I mean, we talked a little bit about uh I think David, you I think we were recording when you said this, but um the idea that companies, I hope so. Well, yeah, no, it was. Uh that the companies want well well-rounded people, but then they then they hire or they they choose the the narrow specialist. Right. Uh how do you kind of see this from the the company perspective? Why should they want their employees to to go through uh something like this?

David Chandler 50:43

How can formal education complement someone's career? How can we um help contribute to successful outcomes, which everybody should agree we is what we want, right? The more successful, well-managed organizations that exist out there, uh the better for everybody because the economy is stronger and standard of living goes up, etc. etc. Um But just try and boil that down to what makes a good manager. Like in the in the business school, we have all of the knowledge to create a very successful manager based on the latest research. If I ask my students how many people like their manager or respect their manager, if I get 50% of the hands going up, I'm lucky. And so why is it that being a manager in theory is possible, we know what it takes, but in practice it's so hard. And and I because I think that that speaks to the why we get the reality we get of whereas you the the four of us can agree that why is maybe the most important question, that curious mind is really valuable. I don't know that organizations think like that.

Charles Duncan 51:50

Right.

David Chandler 51:51

I don't know that they want people asking why all the time. Why do I have to do that? Why does that mean that's what I'm saying?

Courtney Miller 51:55

Why not? But um no no, but truly, no, that's that's a real question. Why why do companies not want that type of I don't know, critical thinking, but I mean I mean because it's a true thing, right? Like we talked about this earlier, where you know some companies want their internal training system to be wholly and entirely internal. Yeah, this clearly is not is not that. So what's where the trade-offs?

David Chandler 52:24

What I mean I think we all tend to agree on the better path, but let me answer that from a holistic perspective and then an educational point of view, and then Charles, maybe you could answer that from an organizational point of view. And let me answer that with an uh an analogy. So for a long time we've known that heterogeneous groups make better decisions than homogeneous groups. Yeah. Right? Homogeneous groups are more efficient, they get to the answer quicker because everyone thinks the same, but the quality of that answer is lower than heterogeneous groups with the different points of view and the disagreement along the way and the understanding each other's points of view, the compromises involved, sort of what we're trying to create with the cohort. That heterogeneous group of people with very different points of view. So if we known that, we we've known that, I don't know, close to a century. That's pretty basic social psychology uh finding that heterogeneous groups are more make better decisions. Look at the boards of directors of most organizations today. They're generally white men. And so even though we've known this for a century, that heterogeneous groups make better decisions, we have real trouble with representation of non-white men at the senior leaders of organizations. And so, according back to your point, why does this happen? It happens for the very human reason that I want to get to where I'm going as quickly as possible. And if you say something that that throws sand in the in the wheels or puts a barrier in my way, I'm gonna see you as a problem rather than someone who's trying to make my journey better. And so I think we as humans, we we are cognitive lazy a lot, late late. We're lazy, we're cognitively lazy a lot of the time. We want to get to where we're going as quickly as we can.

Charles Duncan 54:10

Yeah.

David Chandler 54:10

And then if someone says why, then I've got to stop, I've got to think. Thinking is a problem for many people much of the time. I've got to stop, I've got to think, and I've got to justify what I'm doing and perhaps persuade you so that I can bring you along with me. All of that takes time and effort, so it's very resource intensive. And I don't think that's natural for most of us. The the other point I'd say, uh, and this is something I always used to tell my students all the time, but then I had to actually practice it when I started running a team.

Courtney Miller 54:41

Oh, that's the that's the walk and the walk is the one. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

David Chandler 54:45

That that ivory tower has its benefits, you know. Um I I used to say all the time that you if you want to be successful as a manager, you need to care about the careers of your employees more than your own career.

Courtney Miller 54:58

Yeah, I believe that.

David Chandler 54:59

And again, very easy to say, very difficult to do to do because anyone who's in a senior level in an organization has basically uh got there because they've focused on themselves. They've been good promoters, they've they've got all the knowledge, they've been made really good decisions, they've they performed really well, and that's enabled them to be promoted to a point where suddenly they need to stop caring about themselves and start caring about their direct reports and treat their careers more importantly. That's it's very counterintuitive for us, for ambitious, successful people to do that, and that's why I think it's really hard to make that switch because you know it's not even like it's not it's not like you read a you you arrive at a roadmap or a sign in the in the in the corridor that says, okay, now stop thinking about yourself, start thinking about other people. It's a gradual transition as you become more successful in in an organization, but but it's really hard to do. And so all of these things that we talk about, ideal management, are very non-human, counter-human activities, and so we struggle with it. But Charles, in how what's your experience in in organizations in the industry?

Charles Duncan 56:05

Yeah, I I I have many thoughts, uh, and I'll probably forget half of them here. But you know, first, um uh, you know, I I've I had one leader um who used to um always say, none of us is as smart as all of us, and it kind of gets back to your point. I mean, like he he f he encouraged everyone speaking up and asking him why and the sort of slowing down. It's unusual. Uh, you know, but but one leader um who I worked for for for many years, mentor of mine, uh, you know, went out of his way uh to do that. And and you know, and I I was as you were talking too, David, I remember very distinctly, I don't know, three or four years into my career when I made that flip. And Courtney, you're kind of referring to like from being the the doer, the analyst, to then the manager, the leader of people. No one, no one, there was no book, there was no training. There was, it was just and and all of a sudden I I it was really hard uh for me because I wanted to do the work and I realized, no, this is, you know, it's it's you know, it's your job to sort of mentor and train and lead and so on. And and and and yeah, I mean, I think companies do that uh generally fairly poorly and and and leave leave people to sort of sink or swim on their own, um, you know, and so on. You know, just a couple of other thoughts more just kind of broadly taking a step back. Um, I I don't think anyone, I'm not aware of any airlines that do this well today, um, but back in the day, like at American Airlines uh under you know Robert Crandall and you know, back in sort of their heyday, they very intentionally had a sort of a management trainee program. They'd hire you know kids out of college or MBAs and then in two years rotate them around the business. Um, British Airways had a management trainee program that functioned in a very similar way, certainly through the 90s. I know a few people who went through both of those programs. Um, and and they were ultimately creating better American Airlines or British Air, you know, British Airways uh employees for sure, but it helped to kind of break down the silos, and people, the employees through this got an appreciation for four or five maybe departments over a couple or a three-year period before they landed in in a role, you know, sort of permanently, you know, if you will. And and I must say, like from my own experience and and um you know, I count myself as sort of the exception where I've done a bunch of commercial roles and some operational roles. But most people listening, most folks you know, out there in airlines or in organizations and aviation, I find just kind of do one thing for a whole career. Um, and and I think organizations are hurt for you know by that. I mean, I can just give you, I mean, we were talking about network planning before. You know, you can you can write the perfect airline schedule that works on a on a blue sky day with good weather, but what happens when three of the jet bridges are out of service or you know, you know, a ground delay program or uh, you know, what whatever. I mean, you know, when when when the actual uh you know uh yeah, when when when when the the uh shit hits the fans.

Courtney Miller 59:04

Uh no, we curse all the time.

Charles Duncan 59:05

We curse at Garrick usually. Thank you. But anyway, when when when that stuff happened, ultimately it it's that it's that knowledge of the person who's building the schedule in the headquarters of appreciating what's going to happen, you know, when when the TSA lines are long or all these other things that are sort of outside the beauty of the schedule, you know, it was written on paper. So the more you can break those silos down and have people who've worked in multiple areas, uh, you know, I think it makes companies stronger. It's a sort of in our own way that I mean that that's what this executive MBA in aviation is is trying to do from the outside. But it but it's it's building that awareness and the appreciation for other disciplines and hopefully to give people a springboard to make a leap into a different area, you know, to have the comments.

David Chandler 59:45

Um a reasonable analogy here, you you hear hear all these stories about kids today who specialize in sports way too early. So they stop playing baseball in the summer and football in the winter just to focus on one because they've got they've shown an aptitude. But then what you see happening is repetitive stress injuries. Injuries, yeah, right? And they're and because they they're they're not working all of their muscles equally, they're they're they're focusing on the ones that are required for whatever sport they choose. Right. And there must be something equivalent in the workspace, a repetitive stress injury, where if you've just been doing the same thing for too long and you don't fully understand, you haven't developed the muscles that other jobs require. Yeah, that you you're you've got some, and it's a cog, I'm sure it's some sort of cognitive injury that happens where you you're you're just unable to demonstrate empathy for others' point of view or something like that. But but it breaks down. And and I I think Charles, what you were describing in American and British Airways is exactly the right way to develop people who become constructive, productive members of that organization, not because they're indoctrinated with the the the what it takes to be a the BA way or the American way, not because they're indoctrinated in that way, but because they're better leaders, better managers in general. And they could yeah.

Charles Duncan 1:01:01

And and the challenge though, David, is these programs are expensive. And I think uh, you know, when you're a B encounter and you don't see the long-term view, it becomes very easy that you know that you know, but I mean it was I I I lived this. I mean, you know, so you know, who's funding it? In whose budget does this program live? And and uh because you're you know, the cost of rotating employees around who are effectively learning, you know, and and not contributing as much as a full-time dedicated employee can be high, you know, unless you've got a sponsor within the company who really sees the value. And I and I think that's why these are sadly, you know, kind of fallen by the wayside.

Courtney Miller 1:01:32

But that's not the risk. That's not the risk to these companies, that the the perceived risk. The perceived risk is I'm gonna invest this employee and they're gonna take it to they're gonna become more marketable, they're gonna be more people, and they're gonna take it to my competitor. And and that completely contradicts the whole the all the values or hiring, recruiting, and development values. And yet it's it's there. It's uh it's a mindset that I hear often that nobody will talk about until somebody says, Hey, I would like to do this program. They're like, Well, no, because this, this, this. Yep.

David Chandler 1:02:07

And back to that same idea. What what what do we know makes a really effective leader? But how natural are those acts to being a human being, right? I mean, we all know uh the the best leaders want their employees to be successful as possible because you're caring about their career more than you're caring about your own career, right? And and by definition, if they're if you've got a really s if you've got a team filled with really successful people, hey, guess what? You're a good manager. And you'll be seen as such within the organization because your team is so effective.

Courtney Miller 1:02:39

That's hard.

David Chandler 1:02:40

You should want people to want to take your employees away from them because it means they're different, they're better, you're doing something that's producing these people who are really attractive elsewhere. But then the obligation is on you to make make uh to build an environment where they don't want to leave.

unknown 1:02:56

Uh-huh.

David Chandler 1:02:57

Because even though the pain might be more somewhere else, they know they get more autonomy, they get more respect, they get more involvement in the um decision making, uh, there's promotional pathways open to them. They they should appreciate and understand a good working environment and and also appreciate that that's what has contributed to their success. Because you've got a manager, Charles, you just gave a perfect example where you could identify those managers who've been such a positive influence in your career. Oh, yeah. And I'm I'm sure you're you're probably in touch with them today. And um, and so those ties are valuable even if the odd person ends up leaving. And who knows, if you're such a good team, they might leave, see that the other place is not nearly as good as where while they left, and then come back.

Courtney Miller 1:03:41

Or maybe that other place is a customer or a potential customer, or yeah, whatever, right? I mean that uh Garrick and I were just talking about that in the kind of the consulting industry. When they lose uh team members, they tend to go to clients. Right?

David Chandler 1:03:57

So you're just you're just broadening continue to employ the the company, uh buy from the company.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:04:03

Then hopefully, yeah, that comes back to you, even though they're moving on to something else, something better. Yeah, yeah. But um, I'd love to touch on a little bit. So you both have a pretty uh pretty good multicultural background, right? Both of you seem to have you know traveled and seem to have so um in in a in an industry which is such a global industry, right? Aviation is is definitely got a global aspect. You talk about the ecosystem, I mean it's it's everywhere. So how do you how do you incorporate that into your program so that you know as you're you know, as you're learning about you know different facets of the of the industry, you also take into account the different cultures, which will have an effect on how successful you are sometimes. Right? We've all heard the stories about you know taking airplanes out of a certain area, a certain jurisdiction, or dealing with a culture that is, you know, has has very you know different focus. And so how do you how do you incorporate that into a program like this so that you have at least an understanding that you know it's not just one way, there's different things that you have to take into account to be a more successful leader that deals with an industry that's global.

David Chandler 1:05:13

I yeah, I'd say in terms of shaping the program, it comes there's a big piece of that is just respecting multiple perspectives and trying to build a cohort that reflects that, that honors that, that understands there's strength in disagreement rather than it's just holding me up or making me less efficient or what the what the the anti uh perspective on that would be. So valuing those different backgrounds of all of our students. Uh, one thing that's really uh essential to the culture that we're trying to build is that we don't require an undergraduate degree to get into the program. Because when you're forty years old.

Courtney Miller 1:05:49

That's so on brand, it's so smart. I love that.

David Chandler 1:05:52

Why would I? I I don't if if I'm talking to a forty year old who's got twenty, fifteen to twenty years experience, exactly why do I care what the They were doing when they were 18. And that may have predicted whether they did the traditional rag and gone to college as they were supposed to do. I'm inverted commas for those l listening. Right? I mean, I know what I was doing when I was 18, and I don't want to be judged by it. So why would I judge other people by what they were doing when they're 18?

Courtney Miller 1:06:17

That needs to be out of bumper sticker if they still have those.

David Chandler 1:06:21

And so, but but but it's not and it's not just that we're that's not a charitable act by us. We're not just lowering barriers to access, we're honoring the the different background they have, the different point of view, and saying that's an asset to our program because you can teach the other students something that I can't teach them.

Courtney Miller 1:06:40

Think about the heterogeneity, is that a word? But that's right, yeah. Like by the way, degrees are absolutely one way in which we're homogenous, not just this industry, but in business.

David Chandler 1:06:52

But what is the right way? The cognitive laziness, right? It's used by programs as a checkbox. Like it's an easy way to filter applications. But by the way, Steve Jobs, an excellent example of a non-specialist completely changing an industry, right? Bringing something and I always think about Charles Oscar with this, right? How he was he was just excellent about uh people relations, his empathy is just off the charts, his emotional intelligence makes people people feel heard, and and he brought that with him from his his very, very diverse and varied background.

Courtney Miller 1:07:26

Yep. But it's actually a great example uh for this because now he was on the United Board, so he had that kind of executive oversight experience, but he's a railroad guy. Right, well before that, Courtney, he was Coca-Cola, wasn't it?

David Chandler 1:07:41

Coca-Con Pass. I mean a consumer brand, railroad, yeah.

Courtney Miller 1:07:45

So what a great example of just how uh that that educational or experience uh diversity, experience whatever, is used and valuable.

Charles Duncan 1:08:00

He was you know exactly what United need needed uh at that time, and and we didn't even know we needed it, frankly, in terms of diagnosing it. And uh, you know, he came, you know, I was running O'Hare at the time, and um it in the first couple weeks had to show him the door codes and let him into break rooms and whatnot. And then very, very quickly he memorized the codes himself. He would just run rampant around. I would get sort of you know pager messages or texts that oh, Oscar's up here and there, and we're all kind of running around trying to catch up with him and and and so on. But but he had a common touch, uh back to David's point with the empathy and everything else, uh, that was just off the charts, and it was what the company needed coming through a really, really difficult merger. And he told a story, and I'm sure there's more more to it than just this, but um, his grandmother uh was like a chambermaid, like was it was cleaning hotel rooms in Vegas until she was like maybe 80 or something. And uh she had a retirement party, he went, and like the CEO of the hotel chain was there uh for the for her retirement. And this woman just worked uh I mean all the way, you know, and never missed a day, right?

David Chandler 1:09:06

Never missed a day.

Charles Duncan 1:09:07

And the work ethic that he learned from his grandmother, I think, stuck with him, but also the ability to relate uh, you know, and motivate and and and and understand uh, you know, um anyway, it was just just something I've never seen in another leader. But I mean, he he was certainly uh, I mean, we're we're lucky to have him as part of this program, and he is really taking a personal interest in it, I mean, connecting with the students and shaping it and so on. But United was very lucky to have him at that point in time, uh, without a doubt. It was, you know.

David Chandler 1:09:38

And just to emphasize that point, Charles, because we don't put this on the website, but but he's volunteering to meet individually with every student in the cohort who wants to, spending an hour of his time um helping them achieve their career goals. Because I I do I'm increasingly aware that however good our curriculum is, however good our faculty is, however good the residencies are, it's our ability to help our students achieve their career goals that will really set this program apart. And Oscar's been a huge part of that. He's met with the the cohort collectively already three times, and we're only in term three. He doesn't teach until term eight. And so he's met with them collectively, either as a guest speaker or showed up to orientation, and then he's meeting individually with as many students who who want to, uh, up to an hour at a time. And he's gonna he's gonna follow up on that throughout the 18 months of the program. So it's it's a the goal is to create a a single experience rather than eight separate terms or 16 different courses that happens if you don't have a program that's really trying to build that single narrative, that culture, that to make it one experience for the students that just lasts 18 months. And he he's a huge piece in that, Charles, to your point.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:10:48

Huge. So how do you how do you come up with people how to you know who to approach for these for these courses, right? Because obviously you're looking for people like Charles with experience, right? So that they can bring something to the to the students that are there. So how do you come up with that and and what's the what's the the process to be able to approach the right people? And because I guess it as you mentioned, right? It's not a hey, you know, do you want to do this? Great, let's just get started, right? It's a it's a whole process. It takes a while to get everything together, right? I mean, yeah, and for your laughter, right? It's not an easy one, two, three thing, right? Um so how do you how do you guys do that?

David Chandler 1:11:24

No, it's it's it's definitely a process, and I still uh believe that Oscar only now is understanding what he signed up for in terms of the amount of work it's gonna take for him to teach it to the state. Um but uh no, it's a great and uh and again it's similar to the curriculum. Once again, I did not rely on me, I relied on people who know. And so um, I mean, I feel once you know Oscar Munoz, everybody in the industry is within two steps. Like if he if Oscar doesn't know them himself, he knows the person who knows this person. So what we we started making some really key um uh connections, like Oscar, and then asked for personal uh recommendations. I think that the combination of the industry expertise plus the teaching experience is really hard. But but for example, Scott McCartney, who's just got an amazing point of view and knows everybody in the industry, he's he also teaches at Duke. So um uh is it your your your rival Charles, right? Your UNC, aren't you? Yeah, that's right. He said the D word.

Charles Duncan 1:12:26

Yeah, we're gonna let that pass this time, David.

David Chandler 1:12:30

But but but Scott again knows everybody. And so once you start asking around, I remember when I was I was trying to identify residency airports. Yeah, I reached out to Charles and Scott and said, Hey, what do you recommend? Who who who are the the movers and the shakers in the airport industry at the moment? And I I remember Charles, you and I had lunch very early on, and you identified two CEOs at airports who are just incredibly dynamic and reshaping their in their airport and bringing all kinds of success. And now those two airports are the locations for the um uh.

Courtney Miller 1:13:03

Look, I think it's only appropriate to drop some names here because I'm looking at the list. I mean, you mentioned Scott McCartney, uh who teaches the history of aviation. Like, come on, like of course. Uh uh you've got Brett Burgess, CEO president of ATP Co. You've got Kate Watkins, who m most people probably wouldn't know, but she's a state demographer for crying out loud.

David Chandler 1:13:24

Like you would talk about she was the she was the chief economist for the state before that. Wonderful, right?

Courtney Miller 1:13:30

Right? Uh Sean Donahue was CEO of uh DFW, uh Subote. Obviously, we talked about Oscar, uh some Charles Duncan guy. I don't know what he does, but um I mean like the Ned on the journalism side, and uh it's just fantastic fat, it's just it what a what a great So Alex who is teaching the aviation security class, he's got his PhD in aviation cybersecurity, which I didn't certainly didn't know existed as a PhD, but works now for a consulting company in London, but we'll fly him in.

David Chandler 1:14:05

And and that's another point worth emphasizing is when when the students are in person in class, the faculty are there too. We fly the faculty in to be with the students during the in-person sessions of the term. Um but Doug Downey, too, he's got 25 years of experience in the Air Force, worked uh on the advanced team for Air Force One uh as part of that time, and has and you talk about crisis communications and the amount of planning and knowledge that that uh that he has just as a function of his experience.

Courtney Miller 1:14:35

Um not necessarily in the history of aviation, by the way. What is Doug Downey is presidential advance agent. Of Air Force One for Air Force One It's like oh okay, that's cool.

David Chandler 1:14:50

And also when he was doing that job, the chief pilot of Air Force One was the chief pilot on 9-11. Oh my goodness, what he was flying President Bush around when they couldn't land and didn't know what to do. And so and he also he do you remember there's a famous story about um flying President Bush into Afghanistan for Thanksgiving where Air Force One very high and then drop down very quickly to avoid so he was the pilot for that too. Wow, yeah, so it's just it's just amazing the connections. Once you start connecting to really accomplished, really outstanding individuals, it turns out that they know a lot of other really accomplished and really outstanding people. And so, Garrick, to your point, that's how it came together. And it was um and I you know, and I obviously had to be credible when I showed up and started talking to them, but British accent, we already established that. When it when it's Oscar introducing you or Charles introducing you or Scott McCartney introducing you, you come with inbuilt legitimacy.

Charles Duncan 1:15:53

So yeah.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:15:55

Um I don't think we can have any discussion these days without maybe touching on the the AI piece to to education, right? And so I guess from my standpoint, just how how does that impact a program like this, right? How do you look at that? Uh and and where how do you fit that in in terms of especially as you're as you're growing your potential leaders, right? How do you fit that in so that it's something that whether they need to be more aware of or whether, right? Because I mean, uh you know, I think there is AI is creating kind of a easy way out of ster certain things, right? But it also takes away from the hey, I have to think about this stuff. Um how does how do you guys think about that and and and incorporating that into programs like these that allow leaders to really kind of think about that? Because it is something that's gonna be here with us.

David Chandler 1:16:50

So there's a there's a content piece to that and there's a process-oriented piece to that, right? So we teach it in various subjects. So it comes up in the aviation technology and analytics uh course where we give every student uh a GP chat GPT account, or it comes to the university, I think it's chat GPT. Um and then Alex teaching the aviation security uh of course, but it's cybersecurity, and there's a big piece of the content there that he will touch on. And I'm sure it it will appear here and there in others. I know Oscar is very um uh clued in to the importance of this and its transformational nature, and so he's been uh pushing us to adopt it as widely as possible. And so um as a function of faculty governance, I delegate quite um significantly to the faculty to determine what they want to teach. And so I'm sure I that they'll bring in where they think it's appropriate. Um on the process side, um, there's lots universities are struggling to react to this, and we're constrained by the how fast the university can move because there's little we can do like we could the program couldn't go and negotiate uh an arrangement with Anthropic, for example, to bring it in. That's something the university has to do, and then we will fit in with whatever solution the university comes up with, like providing um AI accounts to all of our students. That's a a university level decision. Um there was another piece to this that I wanted to talk about. Um, which is AI in general, right? And how is it turning education upside down and to what extent should we go along with it, and what extent should we should should we try and work with it? We can't we can we can't resist it, but but we don't necessarily also need to wholeheartedly go all in on that either, because what I see among corporations is a lot of people throwing a lot of money at this without any idea what they're doing or what they're looking for, what the outcome is, what the ROI on this is. They just the FOMO is strong, right? The fear of missing out is strong. They feel like they have to be doing it, so they're doing it, but they don't really know where they're going, and they they just think it'll make sense at some point. That's really not a great model for teaching a course where you don't know what the the learning goals are, you don't know what the deliverables are, you don't even know where you're going, you just start along a uh a a course. Um the other thing that I hear from companies is that AI today, tomorrow, whatever version of Chat GPT we're at, um the core skills are still the same. They want people who can solve problems, they want people who can motivate others, they want people who are comfortable comfortable with ambiguity, and people who can think counterintuitively. Those are the skills that we try and teach in the program, in both of our programs, in both executive MBA programs. Um and I think those have to remain true, those have to remain the North Star for us because if we don't, then we're surrendering everything. Garrett, to your point about the not thinking. I mean, arguably smartphones have done that to us anyway. Um but we're resisting that and retaining the humanity of who we are as a as a people, as a society, that has to be front and center. Technology should always be a complement to what we do. Yeah, it should not be a substitute for what we do, because in the end, we're gonna work ourselves out of a job here.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:20:19

Gentlemen, look, I look it's it's been uh a great discussion. I think your the program that you're currently running is is extremely exciting, and I think it's in the right direction for people that are looking to kind of you know improve and and you know move up in in the industry. So uh I think it's fantastic. I hope you have a lot of success with it. It seems like you already have a great amount of success, you get a lot of great people. So uh it's been an absolute pleasure to to chat with you guys and kind of get your thoughts on something that's a bit different, but still touches you know what we do every day as well. So I do want to thank you for that.

David Chandler 1:20:49

And the ultimate goal is to reshape what professional development looks like in the aviation ecosystem. So um, yes, I I think we're squarely, hopefully, we're squarely on board with the the the podcast and what you guys try and achieve every week, and also what your listeners are interested in.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:21:05

Yeah, no, absolutely very good. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much, we both one one last quick question, Charles. What course are you teaching? Aviation strategy. Okay. Awesome.

Charles Duncan 1:21:15

So uh yeah, really excited about it. Um, I haven't built or designed it. I'll be I've set aside a few months this fall to actually do that, but we'll get into business models and a lot of case studies, and uh yeah, I mean you know, they talk about, you know, I frankly a number of things that Courtney brings up in his newsletter, as a matter of fact, around UCCs and the changing of travel patterns and cost bases and you know, all this sort of stuff. So uh, but yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. And and uh I've got to roll up my sleeves. As David said, this is actually a lot of work, right, to build a design court. So I'll be doing that this fall, and I'll be teaching it in March next year. So I I I've got uh got a little bit of time yet to get it done. It's in my head, but I've got to actually get it uh strategize. Yeah, it is the the start, the middle, the end, all those things that uh that we've talked about together. Very good.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:22:01

Fantastic. Well, again, gentlemen, thank you very much. Yes, thank you. Thank you both.

Courtney Miller 1:22:21

Who are we talking to today? Well, good morning, Courtney. I figure if I change the inflection, it'll tone different. That's how we're gonna talk today. All right. I'm gonna ask him questions like this. Today's gonna be not Yogi Bear. It's not the Yogi Bear. Hey boo-boo.

Gueric Dechavanne 1:22:47

Oh man. Well, that's gonna be a good one.