(00:00) he said you sold the a RJ to Northwest and I said well yes he said if you can sell that airplane to Northwest you can sell any [Music] ey this is the time unwinged podcast welcome back I'm Courtney Miller with visual approach analytics with me as always is Garrick de Shivan of collateral verifications for episode taian Wing is now officially old enough to drink Garrick who is joining us for our 21st episode it is Friday after all right so um
(00:44) so we have it's 8 a.m. on a Friday well I mean it's 5 what's it saying is it 5:00 somewhere you know I don't know it's I mean it's it's it's brunch hour like come on we're almost there not to say that we drink heavily on a regular basis but um every once in a while not to say we don't either either that's right we have the pleasure of speaking with Chris Jones today um which you know him quite well and and I've met him as well he's a delightful gentleman that uh has a great career in aviation um so Chris is the chief
(01:14) commercial officer at aod design labs and so we will uh hear all about that which I'm looking forward to that but um he has also had an larous career with some of the oems he worked as SVP of sales and marketing for Airbus he was also VP of sales at Bombardier or Bombardier he actually had two stened Airbus in North America one has VP of sales VP Marketing sales director um and then also the SVP sales and marketing and uh he had also started his career uh with BAE Systems uh as a sales director doing a senior marketing analyst and
(01:50) marketing so he's been doing a lot of stuff with sales and marketing so Chris this is your time on Wing just a quick intermission before we continue continue with the show we do get a lot of questions about how our listeners can support the show and frankly the easiest way is to continue the spirit of the show which is just to reach out to us at conferences but we also run businesses as well and you can support us by supporting a lot of the work that we do you can uh support the work that I do through Visual approach
(02:21) by visiting visual approach. where we produce a lot of research and Analysis a lot of data visualizations from my side obviously I focus more on Metals so anything that's you know aircraft related uh if you're looking for valuations whether it's on aircraft engines I'm happy to help with any of those types of projects um so we we appreciate you know certainly the opportunities to to work with all of you and we certainly also appreciate just the fact that people are willing to listen to what we have to say and enjoy
(02:47) kind of our thoughts and takes on what we think is a fascinating industry so thank you okay back to the [Music] show Chris thanks for thanks for being on the show today with us um you know we certainly enjoy talking to you in the past and so we're we're looking forward to a great discussion today um you know one of the one of the things that I always asked our guests to to start us off is um how you got into Aviation you know I think everybody's got a different past and different experiences and so
(03:20) we'd love to to hear from you in terms of where the bug came from and where it all started so have at it absolutely so so thank you um first for having me on the um where our friendships go back a long way especially with Courtney um in in a previous incarnation of work and subsequent to that so it's great to uh great to be on the podcast I've followed it and uh you have a lot of fun so thank you for having me on um so where I got started my father was an aerospace engineer and he worked for British Aeros
(03:52) uh he lived in North Wales and at the age of 16 he moved down to um Hatfield in England which is just North of London and and that at the time was a a big uh a big move for him to make moving away from uh his family and the family business that they had at the time they were in Dairy farming and so he went down to Hatfield and started as an apprentice and so um he was a design engineer on the ba 146 and we would go I must have been five or six years old the first open day that I went to and so we go to the factory and you'd T the
(04:32) factory and so you'd hear the press machines going and I just remember the intensity of noise that would be going on on the the final assembly line from Rivet machines to these enormous stamping presses that would just come down with this sheer velocity with a great thud and they would suddenly be making these um door surrounds and and various shapes that went onto the aircraft and so you have sort of this cacophony of noise and um uh sort of just this great experience on the final assembly line and then
(05:06) you'd go out and you'd watch a flying display that had historical aircraft so you'd have the uh Spitfire and the huracane and the mosquito that was uh designed and built locally um that would fly over and then you'd have um the ba 146 that would fly when that came out and my father was on the wheels Tires and Brakes uh design for the air craft and I remember when the first aircraft the uh the initial prototype aircraft flew by um I looked up and I exclaimed dad that's the aircraft that you
(05:42) designed and he turned around and was very very embarrassed because we're out on the flight display and there's hundreds of people around and of course they all turned to Dad thinking that he's the chief designer of the aircraft and so really embarrassed him poor guy um but but it was it was very um it was a very proud moment for British Aerospace to see the first aircraft fly by and its um registration was G sh because it was the whisper jet um and it was extremely quiet because it had four very small engines on um but I
(06:16) remember that aircraft flying by was a proud moment and then it would be followed by the Harrier and of course the Harrier was a Marvel of of noise and maneuverability and so it would it would approach the uh the assembled audience and it would go to the left it would go to the right then it would hover and then it would do a bow and then it would just go off and you just how can you not be impressed by that as a kid yeah but I think what I really connected with was not necessarily the Marvel of Designing and building aircraft it was the sense
(06:48) of purpose around travel and I was born um in town called dunable which is not far from Luton and so you have Len airport with which if you lived in England was a bit of a cliche um about Len airport there was a song about it um but it gave me the opportunity to watch aircraft coming and going and my sister and I as soon as she could drive uh we would go up to the airport and we would go into the terminal uh in the evening because knew you could get a you cup of tea or whatever and we would look up at the depart board and just see where
(07:25) people were going and and I had a great sense of um just a purpose around travel and you you you start to wonder and I still do when I see a jet fly overhead at you know 35,000 ft I wonder where people are going and what what they're doing are they going for a vacation are they going for a business trip are they going to see friends loved ones um they might even be going for um you to see sick relatives or whatever but everyone on board an aircraft has a purpose they're going somewhere people don't just jump
(07:57) on a plane and say I'm going to go for a ride so I'm I'm still enamored with the sense of that some do Courtney might yeah out there you know no they used to they used to pay me to go for airplane rides to to take people on airplane rides now now I can't no that's right now now they they tell you they they kick you out of the airplane it's like no we told you you can't come back caught me up front no yeah sir could you please stop kicking the seat I get that so so so I got my my I guess my entry
(08:33) was um it was the foundation was around my father and then um just going through the whole Transportation experience I ended up taking my um actually my second job when I was 16 was working in a travel agent and that was extremely because it was back in the old days when somebody would come in and say I need to book a flight from you know he to uh to Athens and and so you would write it all out and then You' get on the phone and you would talk to somebody on the other end and you'd have a real ticket and
(09:05) you'd hand it to somebody and then they' go and get their foreign currency at the foreign currency exchange and there was a huge amount of romance about travel back then so we we didn't sort of have that digital um sort of disconnection you had to go to a travel agent to do to to book a trip and so that that really uh sort of filled in my my love for Aviation and transportation yeah wow that's a great story that's great I mean it it's got to be fascinating as a kid to go into you know where they actually make
(09:35) airplanes that's really cool right you get the you get that feel right there of like oh this is how the Magic's made very cool absolutely and I still do any assembly line I've been to I I just marvel in how it comes together um how people are um just working on technological advancement that brings so much to people and communities um and just drives Commerce and you just realize that there's a lot that goes into it and then there's a lot that comes out of it at the same time yeah now is that what drove you to
(10:09) wanting to work for manufacturers right because you have pretty extensive exp like experience working for manufacturers so is that kind of what drove that or is just that was just kind of how it happened well no because um I wanted to go into banking originally and I'm glad I didn't because I would have been a miserable failure at banking at just it's not my personality so um my dad pointed out to me that if I applied to college British Aerospace would provide a commercial apprenticeship and around that commercial apprenticeship
(10:42) was um a program that in your Summers you would work for British Aerospace and I did a commercial apprenticeship and so what they would do is they would move me around uh different parts of the commercial aspects of the the company so procurement accounting um marketing contract sales and I managed to have insight to more of the elements that spoke to me on the commercial side I I knew I wasn't an engineer I didn't realize I wasn't a banker but this kind of opened up an opportunity that would give me a guaranteed summer job that pay
(11:20) for my books and after graduating they had a 2-year program uh where you could um where you did more of the rotation but then the last 6 months of your apprenticeship you really focus down the area where you thought you wanted to go in for your full-time job and that's actually how I ended up coming to the US is uh British Aerospace sent me to Washington uh where Bae had their sales marketing commercial and support headquarters and at the time they were selling 40% of their products into North America so it was the Jetstream products
(11:59) um the ATP that came along uh the ba46 that became the afro RJ uh and I wanted to travel and I said look I'd like to go to the US and they said can't be done you're an apprentice we don't have the budget um but I pressed the system and I persed and I said look I'll set up my Visa I'll do whatever I need to do but this is this is really what I'd like to do and so they sent me to the US for six months and I was offered a job after 3 months and that's sort of how that part rolled out for me for for LA ing my
(12:29) career um really in aviation in the US but I I was still a reluctant participant I think because my perception uh and my my sort of introduction to uh British Aerospace was around the U manufacturing and Engineering side but what I didn't realize is there was this incredibly exciting um role of the commercial group that went out and sold and marketed and told people why they want why why their product was why they wanted the product why it would be more profitable and why it was better than the competition and
(13:07) so I kind of marveled in this realm of trying to build a case as to why it would work for the carrier and so there's a lot of intrigue around that and then one of my rotations in the summer was um in the contracts department and so they gave me a thick contract to read which I wasn't really interested in but what I was intrigued by was the fact that people would disappear for two to three months at a time so they'd go off to Africa and then they would go off to uh um somewhere in Europe and then they would come back and
(13:38) they would have a deal and it was this great Fanfare and excitement and mystery around people traveling and getting these big deals done um and so it that that that really tickled me and that that was where I started to get really intrigued as to uh to to where I wanted to be so you're an apprentice and still in school at the same time during this period is that right yeah up until the last two years um so so I did the rotation um after I graduated from uh from University and then um the last part was coming over to uh to the US and
(14:14) it was still I was in the last six months of my apprenticeship uh when I when I went over to the US and then they were quite happy they they being headquarters that I'd found a job because it it's a successful conclusion to an apprenticeship so it really um and and I think they're also proud about people succeeding in the commercial realm because the traditional I I'd say um typ cast of an apprentice is generally a technical side and people go into be be electricians or um you however whatever path they end up
(14:47) choosing and so for for me to do that on the commercial side I think was uh it's it's a smaller population of people that do the commercial apprenticeships but I think it has incredible value um to to people who frankly don't know what they want to do they know what they're connected with um but then you get this holistic view of how the business sort of works and then you kind of figure out it's a little bit like playing in a big sandbox where you don't have any responsibility and you can say I'm going
(15:14) to try all the apparatus and see what actually sticks and what uh what really speaks to me in terms of what I want to do when uh when I think I grow up and so what role did you then slot into in the US so this is like when you were officially hired did you contracts is that where you started no I started off um as a market analyst and so my job was um we we worked closely with the tech Sales Group and the tech Sales Group were the people that did the aircraft performance and economic side of things and on the market analyst side we would
(15:51) um either look at business plans for startup Airlines and figure out you know how they were going to make money and look to the revenue side of things and we pulled form 41 data and data um of CDs and started to to to P sort of the market driven side of things yeah remember those oh yeah CDs yeah I remember form 41 coming in on CDs yeah yeah so so we used to pull that data and we started to do it really gave me the foundation of you start looking at RPMs asms load Factor yield and what's driving the uh the business side of the
(16:27) market and then how you slot your aircraft in to to meet the demand and the variability of demand and which size and what frequency uh and that really gave me a solid understanding of what drives markets and we had we had everything from the 19 seat jet stream 31 up to the 110 seat um a RJ and so we kind of Str we're on the regional space but we almost straddled a little bit of the uh of the larger Network carrier side of things um and so it gave me a great exposure and I learned a lot about analytics um and regression analysis and
(17:09) um you demand forecasting and I was very lucky to have a mentor at the time who took me under his wing and just sat me down and we would spend evenings learning about the industry and just this great curiosity around how can we do this differently and I think the foundation I learned with British ARIS space was and at that point in time there were five different U manufacturers in that segment uh you had Sab you had um imraa you had dorier you had British Aerospace you had fuer uh and and so there were so many
(17:46) different players in that segment Fairchild was another one they had the Metro uh the 19th seat Metro okay wait a minute okay hold on I want to go through this list so there was British Aerospace there was there was Folker there was Fairchild there was there was D yep which are we missing any oh havin there's the havin oh those guys ATR was around at that time right that they've been around was there around that yeah it was a crowded space right and there's nothing now like that that's the crazy part fasinating and I
(18:30) did we mention s right they were in there um yeah wow it was a crowded space which meant you had to be more creative and to me the value cell was a distinguishing feature and it was the way to it was the way to embed yourself closer to the airline and the way the airline thinks which then builds the story uh inside the airline that is the foundation of the sales campaign and so I learned to connect with the network planners and the performance team in the airline using real metrics and data that they understood so that when you go into
(19:17) uh the SE suite and you're giving a pitch it's all crosschecked with the airline and so you're kind of building a credible platform on which to try and sell your product rather than just going in with a hey we've got this product and we've sold it to X Y and Z it's the extra mile that says this will drive your profitability for the following reasons and and being able to speak their language and identify with the the enablers that they are looking for in their business to uh to to invest but it
(19:48) it it just was um there was no there were very little performers for how you did a campaign it was all we I felt like we were creating stories on every different feature of the aircraft that we thought was better than the other five um and so it it was it was complex but it was fun um and it was I wouldn't say there wasn't any pressure because there was but there's a lot less pressure than you find in a duopoly because the expectations in a duopoly are that you win the expectations when you're one of five is give it your best
(20:24) shot and would be great if we could uh we could produce something but but it it was a different Dynamic um so it was a dynamic that we could create um ideas and and and sort of philosophies and ways to present and and I I learned a lot about going deeper with British Aerospace um and I think that's that's something that stayed with me in terms of earning your seat at the table when you're putting a product in front of somebody you don't earn that place unless you've really done your homework
(20:56) and you're bringing value and that's that's what I've tried to instill with uh with with all of the people I've worked with um and led and Coach which is don't just put a slide up what's the one takeaway for every slide and if you have to repeat it at the bottom repeat it but make sure that they're getting value in every slide I gotta say the final piece of Chris Jones just kind of clicked into place for me I I knew that you obviously the British Aerospace background I knew you had some sort of
(21:25) marketing background but I I never really put the two and that you did all those same things and I have to say all of those times that we were just so impressed like wow like Chris really gets this stuff yeah now I see why it's less impressive like you actually did this like this wasn't this wasn't a thing like like wow a sales guy really gets this that's so impressive n you're an old marketing guy you weren't a new sales guy no but that that really it it actually does really click into place
(21:55) right because that's a lot of um it's a lot of why I really enjoyed working with you um but doing a lot those the the the very same thing kind of that sense of Discovery the sense of um yeah I guess it's I guess it's that you know if you have uh for me that Mentor was Jerome Chong um I'll never forget I went to him one day and I said hey I think I have an idea he said okay good go talk to an airline I said don't you want to see it he goes I don't care it do you think it's good uh yeah it's okay book flight
(22:26) and it was just yeah that's great yeah no it's funny you mention sales uh because I didn't want to go into sales I I was I was offered a job to move from marketing into sales and I said I don't want to do it it just had a it had an image for me which is very cliche which is you're taking people out for lunch and you're just sort of you you're you're waiting for the real people to come in and I felt like I was one of the real people because I delivered value with with my messaging um but then I realized that
(22:57) sales is what you make it um and it's it's it's a uh you you can own that space and you can own it better if you've got messages that you have conviction behind because you understand the numbers um and I think that you everyone who's in front of a customer should have conviction Beyond just reading something they need to believe the numbers make sense and then you sell with passion it's different yeah and do you do you feel that it's obviously having work you know kind of through
(23:29) different organizations um do you feel that the the younger Generations that are looking to get into marketing or sales or get get that do you think that they you know is there something that's lacking because I I you know sometimes you feel like yeah people just kind of go in and go well you know especially in today's environment it's kind of like well we're it's it's product a or product B right and so how much work do I really need to do it's just kind of like H I'll just you go out there be like this is what we
(23:56) do best and you know do you want to take something uh I I I think it comes down to to leadership and I think it's how you select the people and and the job interview process you hope is always um robust and thorough um but I think you need to ask those questions which is you know H how do you how do you build your story um do you understand the the basic elements of the business and what's driving customer um reaction and are all customers equal and and you can filter out people who really get it by the way
(24:34) they sort of navigate their way through those questions and the way they come forward in presenting the responses and I think this explains why people don't suddenly come into the industry from outside of the industry at a more senior level because if you haven't had that right foundation it's very hard to bring somebody in from outside the business and say you're going to sell a commercial aircraft and you've got the best team available um you you you lose that thought pattern and I think you have to embed it right
(25:09) in at the very bottom level and not just teach people how it works but they have to go out and to court this point you've got to go and talk to a customer and you you need to find out from the customer uh what their needs are today and anticipate what they will be in the future and and deliver those thought-provoking messages that give an airline room to ponder and say yeah okay maybe things will be different unless maybe we can open up these five new routes that you've identified um Beyond just saying the
(25:43) aircraft goes from A to B and it burns less fuel than the competition it's like okay what are the distinguishing facets and keep digging and keep churning and keep driving the value of that one seat and the engine reliability and digging into owning the relationship with the engine manufacturer because um you you know what the engine manufacturer's contribution does to the value of that extra seat that you're able to carry on the hot day out of Denver whatever it is so you you need to be very curious um and keep digging down with
(26:16) different layers of uh of curiosity and and then build your story and build it around the customer okay I want to put Chris on the spot I said I I said we weren't going to do this explicitly before we started recording and I'm I Throwing It All Out Here We Go I want to know uh sell sell to me a British Aerospace product like how would you do it give me the pitch why why were the British Aerospace products of the time better in let's give it the North American context I I I want to know like back then like
(26:55) how how how would you do it so it wasn't easy Courtney but I can tell you which ones I sold I I sold 36 a rjs to Northwest Airlines oh yeah those hung around for a long time they they hung around for a long time and the reason the aircraft worked for Northwest is that it performed out of Aspen and Aspen uh at that point where John dasberg had a house in Aspen um but it was a unique market and we managed to find other unique markets where four engines actually produced revenue and value in a network carrier environment
(27:39) because you could take a first class seat into Aspen on an aircraft that was offering closer to Regional Jet economics I say closer to because it was still a 4 engine jet um but the yield that they could benefit um from driving that first class seat through their network uh it that was the differentiator and the F100 couldn't deliver in that market it was either 757 or an A RJ and there was a window in the scope Clause that allowed Northwest to have 3669 seat aircraft so they configured an 85 seat aircraft for 69 seats but the
(28:21) value that they were generating from the first class section um offset the uh the seats that they weren't able to carry as as a Max Capacity aircraft so it was back to the scope CLA always goes back to the scope CL always goes back to Wisconsin had uh I think they were 14 sixes technically they were 146 yeah scope claw yes yep so it it wasn't one siiz fit allall and the F100 uh had the edge as a twinjet and the the 146 had a with the uh loming 502 engine didn't have a stellar reputation and so you had to find that um that
(29:06) bandwidth of value um and it wasn't ubiquitous it was it was never going to be a really big North American aircraft but it would be a niche aircraft that delivered unique value I think one of the most fascinating things about that airplane you mentioned Aspen but one of the most fascinating things about that airplane from a sales perspective um as we were looking at it you years later like way later I mean like decades later Chris um you know why did that airplane sell and somebody said something to me that that the lights the
(29:39) light switch clicked on the the light clicked on they said well think about Aspen and and they said what's what's the single engine performance out of Aspen and they said there is no such thing it's engine out performance that's very different for a 4 engine 146 than a two engine F100 right so it's we we think of it in terms of you know single engine it's not it's if if you lose one which makes sense right from the regul regulatory standard but that's a complete GameChanger in in a restricted airport
(30:14) such as Aspen high yield right um that's fascinating yes and then I have I have one other question for you I know you know the real answer but I'm I'm looking for I'm looking for the market answer as well the fake answer yeah fake answer okay why did they put four engines on that thing oh well you know that you well cuz they couldn't fit six that's right that's that's a fake one that's awesome yeah okay so Bae was bring another engine bring another engine that's right
(30:46) bring another engine so so not to uh not to belittle the uh the four engine Regional Jet but when I went for my interview at Airbus in 1998 I interviewed with hry corpron and uh he said to me uh so tell me about your background and he looked at my resume and he said stop he said you sold the a RJ to Northwest and I said well yes I was the sales director on the account he said if you can sell that airplane to Northwest you can sell any a that's so Henry right because they had they had closed the 320 deal great
(31:26) selling yeah okay so uh the transition then from British Aerospace did you go directly from ba to Airbus yes in fact their offices were uh three miles apart which was quite convenient um and stepping into the door at Airbus was absolutely eye openening because um that's when I realized the gravity of what of the Airbus role which is you're expected to win you the the this is this is how we show up and it it was it was quite different and I sat in my first commercial meeting and we had sales marketing contracts Finance legal
(32:09) and and and support and you a very large meeting and they're talking about Air Canada American Airlines FedEx and I just suddenly realized okay we're we're in the big leagues now it's all super sized um and so I I almost had that um slightly childlike giddy Eyes Wide Open excitement which was okay here we go and then my first account that I got was FedEx and courtly I'm going back to uh to to what uh what your Mentor Eric chel uh told you was go talk to the airline I asked okay where am I getting my
(32:48) um uh where's my training what what are you going to do to bring me up to speed and the response was go down and visit FedEx and FedEx took me to too and they introduced me around all of the relevant functions that they interact with and I was within your own compan within my own company so they gave me the customer view of who was important and relevant in the company which which was helpful um but my first real business trip was going to nice and I went with FedEx andise and we'd sat in a hotel there and there was a big GR
(33:27) grac put up of this s of egg shaped cross-section with two decks and it was called the a3xx and this was the focus group for what would become the A380 freighter and it just that's it my eyes were like this it it it was just Garrick's screen is fuzzy um he's a fuzzy kind of guy but what you can't see behind him on the top shelf there can you it's my oh hold on see if I can see if I can get a thing of beauty it's not it's even though it's fuzzy it's not a 146 it's a FedEx a38
(34:04) freighter yeah love it well that was I won this at a UBS event where they were it was one of the one of the giveaways I know yeah it's one of my favorites that's that's great yeah so uh I I literally was part of the uh the focus group meeting as we started talking about the uh the freighter and we had the leading freight companies around the world uh all present at the meeting and just looking at systems um Power drive units um uh environmental control on board uh loadability challenges for upper deck
(34:42) and Main deck and um CG limits and floor loading and it was just absolutely fascinating and a new um a new area for me in freighter um because the ba 146 had some Freight uh aircraft with TNT but that was a market uh that we weren't involved with in North America uh so getting into the freight world and just seeing um how integrators use an aircraft as part of their Network and the 380 at its time was pipeline capacity right it's it's the the largest aircraft able to go between the main points of activity and
(35:20) being able to have later cut off times out of Asia going into Memphis uh or into Anchorage uh was all just uh it was that to me was another great learning experience I I I understood or I thought I had a good insight into passenger um uh passenger metrics and now I was moving into a new um realm with the freight carriers and my first visit down to Memphis was uh they used to do a management um push for the peak season where management would go down and invite key vendors in to help with the sort for the two weeks
(36:00) leading up to uh to to Christmas and you just volunteered and you went down onto the line and you'd see all the P packages come down that were offloading for the aircraft or from the aircraft and you'd flip them over you scan the barcode and off they would go and it's all now fully automated but at that time um you had that one last part where You' just flip it and if the barcode didn't scan you'd type it in but what I witnessed was Commerce moving and you could tell which aircraft came in
(36:30) because the motor parts were coming in so like oh that that flight came from Detroit pineapples and flowers came in so you know pineapples were coming from uh from Hawaii and you could just start to you could see Commerce being moved through this giant Hub and being distributed uh out on trucks to go and visit you know to go and be delivered to uh to to people who had ordered things and it was fascinating uh just seeing Commerce move on on Freighters versus a commodity of passengers is moving around and that uh that that that really uh was
(37:01) something I enjoyed so you worked the sort in Memphis we did we worked the sort yeah and then 911 came along so I joined Airbus in '98 and then after 911 um of course they they clamped down on the the security there uh but yeah it was a great thing because you'd go in at night and you'd work until the early morning on the sort and then we'd go and grab breakfast and go go and grab some sleep but it was a great um it was great because from the FedEx side they got labor but they brought the customer in
(37:31) as well to understand and watch and be part of the uh the movement of their packages and it was a great team bonding experience as well um you got the chance toh to work with uh with your customer and uh it it was great it's fabulous I I wish they would do it again um because I I would volunteer in a heartbeat that for anybody who has not experienced uh an Express sort uh in the evening on a weekday you need to do it uh it it's especially if you're in aviation have anything to do with you know selling aircraft or moving aircraft
(38:06) or the aircraft Market on the freighter side especially on the express it when I joined DHL I think one of the things they told me was now um so the thing about these airplanes is the revenue doesn't walk itself off and I said that's kind of silly but that's everything we did mhm the sort the gsse you know to to get the the the containers you know to the sort and then how do we how do we tear down those containers how do we sort them the letter the the conve bles and then the non-c conveyable material this is just
(38:44) you know forklifted around and I learned so much about I just anything to do with Airline operations by watching an Express sort probably the the single greatest you know the the most compressed amount of experience I've ever ever gotten in in like one8 hour session that I hardly remember because it's like 2 am right exactly yeah we we we went up to Chicago um with Atlas Air and we were trying to debunk the mystery around the 10-ft pallet because the uh the the 747 had a higher um main deck uh loading door for a 10
(39:27) foot pallet and at Airbus with the 380 we could only have an 8ft tall pallet and so we were challenging how often an 8ot pallet is or 10ft pallet is actually employed because it doesn't cross Deck with any other uh aircraft type um so you'd have to tear it down and then repack it if you were going to cross de a pallet but we went to Chicago we stood on a atlas aircraft aircraft that have come in um it must have been 1 2:00 in the morning and and we stood there with clipboards and we were literally watching the pallets coming off and just
(40:01) sort of like getting dimensions and things I mean the height was obvious but we also looking at what was being transport transported at the time and I remember you saw a Victoria Secret um pallet would come off and then you'd see a heavy um pallet which would be um what they call Dirty Freight so it's like the the Machinery um that would be coming off a an oil platform and the outsize cargo the animals I mean it's just it was fascinating on the getting out of the integrator the um FedEx and UPS side
(40:31) of the world and getting into real heavy cargo lift uh and just how their movements are a little bit different they have um unique requirements for some of the items that they're carrying including floor loading and maneuverability of the pallets on board and it just it's it's really uh it's really intriguing okay so what was 10t tall anything I mean what were the findings I'm nothing nothing that I witnessed and and in fact we we we argued as well that um some of the aircraft had the nose loader and the
(41:04) nose loader would flip up but it goes it's underneath the the cockpit so you can only load an 8ot pallet through the nose door so there were there were um very few pallets this a short answer were 10t high uh and most of them were sort of packed they were either maxed out to the floor loading because they were heavy um and and the uh the pallets most of them are getting cross decked anyway so it was uh it was seldom within my first week of joining DHL I was given the task of they had a spare CF6 engine that needed to be moved
(41:41) across country and they said is it going to fit in the in the side of this it was a 762 freighter so I looked at the diameter I looked at the diam of the aircraft we can Center loadad yeah awesome take it and then somebody who is not they're they're more the mechanical engineer worked um kind of actually loading unloading aircraft looked at me just kind of shook his head he goes nope won't fit and I'm like I'm looking at the numbers he said but you got to get it in the door and then turn it sure enough right it wouldn't happen
(42:15) I never would have I never would have thought of that the diagonal and all these different angles and and here's somebody you know I said how did you know that he goes well we tried it once you can do anything that's kind of cheating yeah but just the things that you don't you don't think about um and it's it's all I mean it's it's very automated I don't mean to say that it's it's manual and and you know it's there's a lot of automation but when it gets comes down to those like the 10-
(42:45) foot pallets right like um you know can you turn an in and get it in in the side door and turn it it just requires that Nuance that that level of detail um that's fascinating I don't get to talk frers enough cuz you know Garrick is an appraiser what does that mean pointed straight to a freight I order stuff I have boxes at my door every day every day you for a consumer yeah that's you know I drive my kids around I drive Freight around you know that's that doesn't that count doesn't count for something sometimes you're the
(43:21) freight too yeah yeah exactly yeah the heavy Freight yeah uh so it's it's interesting you mentioned the the nose door right because it's I think there was a an article this week that made a comment about how maybe some customers are are trying to see if Boeing will do a a kind of a nose door on the trip 7 freader the the triple 7-8 um and it's one of those I think it's such a unique that's what makes a 747 so unique right because it does allow you to carry I think certain uh material that no What
(43:56) airplane can do right but that's yeah it's pretty Niche right and so I think from that standpoint you know I don't know if it's if it's something that Boeing will probably entertain because it's only going to fit for less than a handful of clients right that'll that'll that'll probably fly it uh but it also just kind of guarantees that the 747-8 freers will probably fly forever um yeah but it is interesting kind of how people think they're just kind of like oh well you know you should just you should do
(44:20) this just like the the 10ft door you you need to have it for the two times that we might need it in the you know lifetime with the airplane right uh and that's kind of that that that thought process from the operator of you know why they want certain airplanes is kind of like that well just in case you know the 99% of the time we won't need it but that 1% if we don't have it somebody's gonna be like oh man we should have gotten that right an omem I think that's yeah right as an oem that's the
(44:51) challenge right because then and I think that's why ultimately you get to the you you know the marketing of like okay we're going to offer an airplane that is standardized and everybody's going to get the same and then by the time the airplane launches you like so what happened to that right that that didn't come because everybody went yeah you know what that's a great idea but we really want it our way and we wanted to do like this and that so if we're gonna be a launch customer like we want that
(45:17) and you're like you know as an oem okay all right fine we'll do that just so we can sell more airplanes but it's just it's it's amazing right that that thought process it goes back to understanding your customer right and that's kind of that's what I'm getting out of this yeah no it it does there's weight and complexity that comes with anything that you add onto an aircraft as you know um and for that design you're then imposing that structural weight on every other Airline that's
(45:47) going to be flying that freighter and so the the the tradeoffs between what could you Charter an aircraft to do that dirty Freight versus whether that customer is uniquely anchored around the need for a nose loader there are alternatives and so you have to as an oem think about the long game and you want your aircraft to be as homogeneous as possible and you want to have as few unique features that that don't have a payback on them so it it's that old adage with uh with aircraft which is weight wait and wait
(46:22) right it's like what what's the uh what's the payback on carrying that excess structural weight and inspection requirements and and is is it a it is a small segment of the market and does that cost us the bigger portion of the market if we uh if we either go for it or don't do it yeah so even in this just a play the thought experiment out say I don't know how you would nose load it' probably be a tail load uh Tri 7 I don't know I I haven't seen anything that would suggest either way but you got to
(46:53) break that airplane in two to do it and which they' done before for in in some um in some programs but clearly you wouldn't have the mechanism if the freighter wouldn't have the the nose loading you wouldn't have the hydraulic pump or whatever to to do it but to Chris's point you've got a provision for all of that because manufacturing is key those Provisions add weight they add cost they slightly you know sub optimize de optimize whatever the word is everything else yeah for that one
(47:27) potential option I think of the um the Dual over wi exit on the 39 that I think was like an EasyJet only thing at the time was yeah um and I I that may have played out differently I that may have been solely on on those I don't think the provisions were necessarily there for a dual over Wi on on all of them but you have to make that you have to make that that calculation and then the program cost has to be born in some deal somewhere right that's going to that's usually that's usually why you don't see
(48:05) it go forward Garrick because you know you what would you like I would like this okay would you like to pay for it no I don't want to pay for it like that's Universal across all Industries we're finding it is and and then you layer in the complexity of manufacturer as well which is you're now introducing another variant um which all those aircraft don't come down the line at one time it's not that you suddenly stop and say we're going to insert 100 EasyJet 319s with dual overing exits they get um introduced
(48:38) sort of um according to the number of aircraft that are going to be delivered and it starts to add complexity and and oems try and shy or shy away from complexity wherever possible but if it turns the market and if it's it brings in a significant customer order and an easy jet one was a significant order then it uh it was it was strategic at the time how big was how big was that first order uh for do you remember you going to ask me that um no not off the top of my head I think it I don't know either yeah yeah so I I
(49:17) was going to say the uh it it brings up a great point about when you look at the OEM landscape today um I guess what what do you think is is you missing or what do you think the OEM should be doing because I mean obviously there's a lot of issues going on this there there everybody's very busy with you know technical issues supply chain I mean you name it right it's it's basically kind of trying to ramp up production it's a challenge for everybody so everybody's coming in the same boat but at the end of the day you
(49:47) still need to move forward and so having work for various manufacturers and having that understanding of like okay what does it take to to sell good products like what do you see in the current landscape now that you're out of it that kind of makes you go oh you know what I they they really should be focused on this or are they going in the right direction or I don't know the question what he's asking is if I were in charge I would that's really yes yeah if I were I would aspire to I think is the uh
(50:19) if I were in charge um because not all of these things are possible in today's um today's environment so I think what airlines want most is they want an aircraft that is going to um is going to be reliable it's going to um meet the economic um objectives and the economic uh level of uh well the level of Economics that were expected when the business plan was uh was built um but they want it on time nobody wants surprises and so the aspirational thing is that you're delivering something that is on quality that turns when you um
(51:01) when you hit the ignition switch that is going to you the engines will start they will run as long as you can um as long as you hoped and you think that the level of technology is delivering the economic benefit with the reliability expectations of the generation of aircraft that you replacing and so we're on that um Improvement curve for reliability of the new technology but we're still a long way short of replacing a CF m56 the outgoing engine on a 737800 um is really the target for the max 8 or the 320 or the 321 Neo you just
(51:41) want that level of reliability um and if you take out the engine reliability portion of it we're now down to um the predictability of when an aircraft is going to deliver which is I've set my network around right aircraft delivering in these months so I can hit my growth targets for the the the peak and the oems don't that it's not that the oems um are holding information a lot of this is just Dynamic and with the when I say it's Dynamic it's they're constantly chasing the issues that are
(52:21) affecting uh the delivery of aircraft and it's deep into the supply chain it's labor issues it's quality issues um it's it's building at low volume levels it's all of these complexities that were introduced through covid um will take some time to to work out and an airline just doesn't need surprises because they're building their business to it so if I'm an airline CEO I want to know if you're delivering a plan to me even if it's a revised plan that this is something I can build my business on
(52:57) because I've got my shareholders I've got my passengers I don't want to deliver a surprise when I do my next quarter's uh earnings report uh to Wall Street that I'm not saying well our capacity is down uh we have poor reliability they don't want to be blaming the aircraft and right now there are plenty of reasons why aircraft manufacturing is is is struggling and the speed of delivering information from an oem to a customer by the time you sit down with a um a well calibrated delivery forecast which says this is the
(53:36) latest plan for your deliveries in a lot of cases that information is out of date because there are new issues that are affecting the supply chain from maybe a different sector um be it cabins or be it systems or seats or whatever that those items pop up and it's a little bit like playing whacka and and just trying to um trying to keep everything flowing to a plan and it's just it's it's unreliable so that that's where the biggest struggle is now once you figured Those portions out which is you I'm
(54:10) getting an aircraft that delivers to spec it delivers the value that I expected and I can build my forecast around this the next Paradigm is how do we get to Net Zero and I think we all agree with Net Zero we're a long way behind the curve I there's there's so many different um predictions that are out there so it would be Net Zero by 2040 or carbon neutral by 2050 whatever it is um we are behind that and Airlines uh and manufacturers and the infrastructure need to come together to deliver a product that is going to be
(54:50) gamechanging and the gamechanging aspect is is it's different different today than it was when the Max and the Neo were launched so the Max and the Neo were launched around 15% fuel bone reduction it it was based on economics versus the other aspects that we're now facing which is climate change and sustainability and the engine portion um so I was talking to John Slattery um earlier this week and the rise project looks very promising and it will deliver um Step change economics that will be um Superior to what was delivered from uh
(55:29) the LEAP program and the gtf so so you'll get a step change there 15 20% um closer to 20% improvement over today's engine technology which is great but that alone is not going to get us to where the industry needs to be you need improvements in airframe design and you see the Blended Wing you look at the um the trust brace um concept that Boeing's looking at um those kind of enhancements need to work in concept with the engine technology and Systems Technology to deliver a real step change and and that's the point when um Airbus
(56:09) and Boeing and any new entrance can enter the market is when you've got a step change that is defendable for the next 30 years because you don't want to jump into something too soon and say first mover Advantage because that becomes first move disadvantage if 5 Years From then there's another enhancement that comes from um airframe technology different design or whatever that now builds the next level of Economics um and now you're looking at um usurping the design that came five years before so you have to time your
(56:46) entry into the market appropriately but then on top of that you've got the infrastructure that needs to move along with it and whether that's the um manufacturing of saf and and making sure that you're delivering in the quantities that need to be delivered to meet demand um but perhaps when you get into hydrogen you have more pressure on infrastructure which is how do I distribute and how do I change a lot of the um the fuel systems over to hydrogen and how does you how do I do that in multiple destinations so I'm I'm not
(57:22) limiting the operability of an asset to a select number of airports it needs to be um well distributed to make it fit into uh into an Airlines operation so it's going much deeper than just aircraft design it's infrastructure design it's how do you design gates at airports to fit aircraft with a blended Wing that will have a wider wingspan than you had on a single L aircraft for example yeah but the tradeoff is you get step change economics but the airports have to do their thing to to adapt and so it the the uh the the impact of a new
(58:04) platform that really is going to be a step change the whole industry has to move with this it's not just aircraft design how do you pick fascinating around how pick well I mean you know Boeing you know has I I don't want to say hinted but I mean they're very overt about you know the testing doing on the trust Wing really interesting there's jet zero with the Blended Blended Wing you've got Airbus with the hydrogen right so um this seems like a very unique point in history where the next step the spectrum of what's possible in
(58:40) the next step is so wide and it can't be all of it right you we can't Implement well I don't know I'm sure we we can do a lot of things but we can't Implement all the infrastructure required for saf and all the infrastructure required for hydrogen at this same time y right there's going to be like they're going to use some there there needs to be One Direction and nobody knows what direction that is yet so which do you choose and and right now you you don't know that we we're at this weird kind of
(59:14) no man's land where we're just kind of waiting for that technology to to move forward um which really gets me to um the work that you're doing now with with aerodesign Labs uh which so just just explain kind of the what what you're doing with with aerodesign labs and and kind of the the approach that you're taking there absolutely so so we we've just talked about um Paradigm change in in aircraft design um and and the time it's going to take to introduce that um not to be overlooked and perhaps um a real
(59:49) opportunity for carbon reduction is improving what's in service today and aerodesign Labs um designs and um certifies drag reduction kits for aircraft that are in service today and we have an STC for the 737 700 and now for the 800 and the the the premise is we look for um opportunities to reduce drag which come now from areas of the aircraft that typically have not been they've either been overlooked or could not be modeled before because when these aircraft were designed um they were designed with uh earlier um technology
(1:00:36) which meant they didn't have the benefit of CAD they didn't have the benefit of com computational fluid dynamics which only until recently the application of cfd has been a very expensive and B getting access to supercomputers to run cfd has been limited to um sort of the very large OEM and so we uh will scan um a model of an aircraft and build a digital map u a mesh of the uh the whole aircraft and look for areas of disrupted air flow as far Upstream in the aircraft as possible so with the 737 the um most obvious area to start at is
(1:01:20) the wheel well um because they don't have the uh the the the doors um on the undercarriage um but it's actually just in front of that with the pack exhaust where you've got this velocity of air that comes out in front of the wheel well and so that's where we started to capture and and solve for smoothing out air flow there and then the objective is to flow that all the way back across the aircraft across the fuselage out to the tail section as smoothly as possible so it's a holistic aircraft approach which
(1:01:53) hasn't been done before and in terms of Technology it's probably uh the the comparison is the impact that the winglets had for improvement in fuel burn reduction um we are perhaps the next uh biggest uh contribution to reducing fuel burn and carbon emissions than the winglets we're not the same we don't get the benefit of aircraft performance on Airfield and climb performance but in terms of Cruise fuel burn the reduction is somewhere in the order of 1.
(1:02:30) 5 to 2% Cruise fuel bur reduction uh which is measurable and that's that's the key here um a lot of people have been a lot of airlines have been um taking use of um carbon offset programs um this is real tangible fuel burn reductions which has a a cost saving and B contributes to the reporting of sustainable metrics for reducing carbon so we designed these kits for for specific model type um the 737800 is a variant now that is joying enjoying um higher demand than it has done for a long period of time either for Airlines to bring them in to
(1:03:11) complement their Fleet or to extend leases and what they have and if you're able to save um uh $100,000 a year per aircraft in fuel burn or fuel cost reduction it starts to become a natural hedge against higher fuel costs and so it it has multiple layers of benefit to to an airline and uh we we we think we've hit a sweet spot in the market because the pressure points come from the cost of fuel and the desire and the demand to reduce um carbon emissions and the demand comes from investors it comes from corporate accounts it comes from
(1:03:52) high carbon tax in Europe and it's it's the topic of the day when there are all of these other um opportunities to to save carbon but this is the most measurable way to do it and uh I I think we've got uh the 737800 market we're we're ready to hit that market we've got the easa um STC application is pending there um so we'll be ready to hit the higher um carbon um tax region of Europe which can save another $220,000 per year per aircraft uh just in carbon tax reduction from uh from burning less fuel uh so we'll start
(1:04:34) with the 737 n we're looking at other platforms as well we've scanned other model types um we're looking at those right now in our um cfd models which we start to iterate kick designs to look for how we can um address the areas of uh of disruption there but we're doing it in a level of granularity that hasn't been seen before and in a retroactive way because the oems are looking forward Airbus and Boeing are looking at what they can do for the next aircraft design and how they can build um aircraft on
(1:05:08) time to the Quality that that uh that the airlines are looking for we're able to look backwards and say how do we improve areas that were overlooked before and build this cumulative uh benefit uh in an STC that uh that delivers value for passenger and Freight aircraft so as aircraft are being converted from P to F when they become the F they're operating for another 10 years so if we can save 10 years worth of fuel um it it's it's a very strong play and it helps to decarbonize a a small portion uh of benefit but it all
(1:05:44) is cumulative yeah absolutely I'm fascinated by this and I know I've told you as much Chris um but but I do want to say so I had somebody asked me recently they said hey what's what's Chris doing I said he's with the aerody desan labs they do the the drag reduction kits on the on the 737 and they said that that sounds boring I said I know right like that's what's so great about it right this is where like the rubber actually meets the road and the stuff are are actually being done in the
(1:06:17) context of all the bright shiny um you know really exciting things hydrogen not to say that those aren't important but this is happening now and is tangible and and and you know there are there are other groups doing various um various types of things to save those couple points here and there API jck comes to mind uh what you guys are do with aerodesign Labs right like these are the responsible moves you know like you said right these are aircraft that you know especially on the 800 side will become Freighters and
(1:06:51) they'll fly forever and ever so it's it's very likely more a question of how the how the Next Generation comes along but it's very likely that Blended Wing body aircraft will be flying right next to 737 800s with aerodesign Labs drag kits right for a decade or so sorry Garrick I cut you off there no that's all right I'll let Chris talk well what and then I'll let you talk we're not future proofing aircraft um but we are taking one step forward and and to your point the there will be
(1:07:30) even as newer technology delivers and and it's happening today right so so the Max and the NEOS are bringing 15% or more um reduction in fuel burn but they're also doing it at a slower Pace than people had anticipated and so two years ago people would have said hey this this doesn't necessarily make sense because I'm getting you 50 of of whatever an e or or a Max uh next year well people are starting to look at that and say well maybe I'm getting 25 to 30 and then it it continues to stagger out
(1:08:06) to the right and it's not that they change their Fleet plan but they do change the lens that they're looking through when they're saying there's pressure on sustainability what do I do now to help bring a little bit more saving to the fleet that I will operate longer and and and that's where it it it's helpful and it takes a little bit of the bullseye off well you're operating an old aircraft while we're operating older aircraft more efficiently we're doing what we can and by the way these are the
(1:08:38) uh the the carbon savings per per year it's about 370 tons of carbon a year um per aircraft so it all adds up and when you can get a payback on a kit that's under three years uh it starts to uh to be an intriguing proposition for uh for the SE suite and that's only fuel payback sorry I keep talking over the poor guy that's all right yeah that's right paybacks but the carbon tax savings but also just the ability to put in your quarterly report we're doing this thing right now and seeing savings right now anyway I'm
(1:09:17) sorry Garrick it is say something mean so now the pressure's I know and that no no now and that Garett yeah no no no and the problem was you answered all my questions um no I I to be honest look I was just going to say I I think the timing from your side is impeccable in terms of like you couldn't have done this because you're you're absolutely right I think right now you're looking at you know airlines that are trying to justify keeping the last generation of airpl or the the previous generation of
(1:09:46) airplane longer because it's more reliable and you know and but how do you do that when you have especially if you're a public company you've got basically the criticism that saying well yeah but why aren't you taking on more new airplanes that reduce carbon reduce everything else so this is a way of saying look we we are going to keep these airplanes longer but we have the ability to make it more efficient to reduce carbon right so we are doing one more step and and that's kind of the best way to justify you know a product
(1:10:15) like that because they need to they it's it's not that they have a lot of choices of like oh we could just take more new airplanes they can't really take more new airplanes but they still need justify we're going to keep the old ones a little bit longer right and for a variety of reasons they are behind on their sustainability targets right so so this helps to offset a little bit of that space yeah Chris I've told you this before um but I think your perspective is I don't want to say unique because
(1:10:45) there are a lot of really cool people um who have some some really unique uh perspectives but um it's needed um and what I'm thinking of specifically is your the way that you looked at kind of what's coming next in on the aircraft side but from what matters to Airlines and right now that's get me my airplane and make it work like you said it was going to that is the number one differentiator right now yeah as but if you were to so that's that's that that ground level conversation like when you
(1:11:26) show up and you're sorting boxes or you're you know th this is the real Airlines pain point which is different than if you ask Airlines what do you want to come next that's a different answer and when you focus on that question like what do you want to come next if you don't have that next thing on the drawing board people start to freak out but that's not actually the pain point right now we're we're dealing with what just came next the reliability is not there the production rates are really where we can
(1:12:00) differentiate and that dovetails just I think wonderfully into I I it's that I call it kind of the the real knowledge like the real deep understanding of even to the operational level of of where this industry is going and again it sometimes ends in really and I do say this with all due respect I do think it's incredibly exciting but it ends in some really boring places and I also I also say boring and responsible right like like these these are these are hand inand um and you know it's it's that
(1:12:40) it's that level of kind of perspective and understanding that ends at these you know let's do what we can do right here's something that we can do like that let's do this let's do this now these will be around for a long time yeah so maybe that's you just got the title slide from for my uh for my presentation boring but relevant not even relevant yeah kick ass not even right yeah look yes definitely relevant definitely relevant but I don't you're not you're not going strong
(1:13:10) enough there Chris yeah but you know what it's funny because what it comes down to is everybody talks about you know Net Zero by what 20 2050 or what I think it's 2050 but it's really it's it's not about you know how do we get to Net Zero by 2050 it's what do we do every year to get to absolutely right and that and those are the things that that that get you there because it's not a oh you know what we're going to come up with a whole new product that has no emissions whatsoever yeah okay well when
(1:13:40) is when is that going to be right and I think you know you you you raised a great point before about you know everybody's looking at all these different structures that are going to potentially be the next generation of airplane but I don't foresee Airbus building one structure and Boeing building a completely different looking structure because ultimately for airports Airlines what they're going to be like no that's a that's a logistic nightmare I'm not dealing with that so you guys need to talk and figure it out
(1:14:11) and once you figure out this is the best ultimately next you know fuselage that we can build then then we'll look at it and then you can figure out you know what are the nuances between you you and them right but that that's me takes I think that's going to just push things out I mean you know people talk about the Next Generation airplane being in the the 2030s based on that alone I don't think so I think there is a another iteration of hey we've made some improvements through I don't know whether it's
(1:14:39) through kind of the hybrid type structure that you know provides a bit more but it I I think it it t just kind of pushes out further because I I I think at the end of the day we all need to come to an agreement what is the next a infrastructure look like and and so the path to 2050 is a little bit like a 401k program if you start investing when you've got more money which is later on uh so now you've got saf and saf comes in 20135 and Beyond in in a relevant volume likelihood is if you wait until then
(1:15:15) till it becomes um you if that is your main contributor within that space because you don't have an entirely new aircraft design that will be the step change by 2035 savings have to start today which is you got to accumulate savings from day one not waiting for new aircraft to deliver or waiting for a new entirely new design to deliver and infrastructure to catch up it's what are you doing today which is exactly what you said Garrick it's it's it has to happen now and people are in that space doing
(1:15:49) boring things but it it's cumulative um it's doesn't necessarily compound the same way as 401ks do but it gives it it starts to make um a meaningful contribution to reducing greenhouse gas emissions while we're trying to figure everything else out yeah in the the whole the whole action versus hype thing I think separating that out is is also really important um and I'll throw I'll I'll throw the EV toll space in in this as well because understanding what we're talking about here is Net Zero by
(1:16:26) 2050 what does the EV toll space get us in that goal it doesn't mean that there aren't other objectives but they don't you know but for very rare exceptions they don't replace airplanes they replace cars and you know what's better at replacing you know uh internal combustion engines and cars than EV tools it's electric cars from a pure sustainability stand point and that's not to say that there aren't reasons to be excited about a lot of these new technologies it's just to
(1:17:02) separate the hype from the things that can happen and and I say this in the in the context of aerodesign labs and and what you're doing and kind of from that boring angle is there's really no hype behind this um but that I mean as I alluded to that really interests me like I'm really interested in looking where people aren't aren't looking where these you know I think there's a a great example of of you know how to look at this Market what benefits you can achieve today but I'm also really
(1:17:38) interested in why people aren't interested in this I think there's a whole other um kind of kind of study there on and what draws our attention how those rise and fall um but to your 401k um example look FTX I'm all in um I I you know greats NTS I don't need these I don't need these bite-sized you know growth every year I'm I haven't looked at my account I don't even need to it just up it just keeps going up baby I'm not killing crypto yeah stop my space I'm the steady Edie money market
(1:18:20) account yeah dividends well that's that's what it is actually I mean yeah right you you put money towards something that has a payback a fuel only like you're not giving yourself enough credit and not to not to butter up the guest but a fuel only like it pays itself back in fuel costs you're not even touching carbon you're not even touching sustainability costs the impact to the environment the impact to shareholders and and the ESG space and all that this is just it pays itself back in three years years yeah less
(1:18:56) years three years yeah I mean that's so Network dependent right and and Stage length and so forth but I'm confident under three years payback yeah I think what I love about what you guys do is the idea that you're you're not you're not trying to you're not saying that ultimately the the oems didn't didn't do their best job you're just saying that based on when they did it they didn't have the technology that you have today to figure out how you can do it better right and I
(1:19:27) think that's that should be looked at for a variety of products right I mean there because there yeah you're right there's some things that you know it's kind of like well if it ain't broke right don't fix it and so we just kept selling it but based on what we can do today let's figure out how we could do it better because it's still you know I mean on the the nbody side right you've got what over ultimately over 10,000 airplanes that are out there okay that's a lot of
(1:19:49) airplanes how do you make those better so that ultimately they're because they're still going to be flying so how do you make those better right and I think that's what where you guys come in which is fantastic yeah and we're complimenting the oems um we're not stealing any space from them um and so it it we all can coexist in that space what's interesting about what we're doing at ADL is the software that we have um that helps us build and iterate uh designs on various um matters
(1:20:22) involving not only air flow but fluid dynamics as well software that is using artificial intelligence now as well that helps us to build a mesh of a shape and model out the the fluid dynamics much quicker than you could before which means you're able to turn um iterations much much quicker and see what the impact is of a different shape on the uh uh as it impacts air flow or fluid dynamics and we can scan anything that moves so you can do a truck a boat you can do it with air conditioning um anything that is impacted with air flow
(1:20:59) that you want to improve the efficiency of our software can turn that much quicker than the technology that is out there today and so that's a really um exciting Avenue that we're sort of tangent um uh looking up to the existing applications is where else can we apply this software that allows people to iterate designs much much quicker and tell me an oem or in in the Aerospace world or even in ship building or people who are doing um uh wind um generators anyone that's that would look to optimize and do that more quickly uh I
(1:21:43) think our software actually is a very um interesting uh area that we're exploring that has massive growth potential and I I don't think we realize that um when we first started this but now we realize what AI brings to that whole mesh process and and accurately and in incredible detail modeling out um and seeing in a very very granular format various aspects of a shape um that is a really intriguing space and and we're really excited about that and that's a it's a different group that I'm
(1:22:18) responsible for because you want to keep me focused on aircraft and I've I think I've limited my area of um aerodynamic um knowledge and and shapes and air flow and things but uh there's a lot of space to be explored with with that software too I I think there's a um there there's another way to to kind of look at your your point Garrick on you know that the oems didn't have this information available to them um back then yes they do now right like I'm sure I'm sure ADL would be very happy to go
(1:22:54) and and sit with the oems and be like yeah here look at this you know um compensate us for for for that but there's another reason that these uh optimizations are available like you can get two points on on an aircraft fuel bur because it's it's not super optimal because manufacturing does matter the ease of manufacturing the ability to mass produce this aircraft I mean kind of gets back to to what you were uh first talking about that there's there's that that tradeoff um to everything so
(1:23:31) for the oems to go back in and and say redesign and uh and build these things it affects their production process which by the way right now isn't so hot I mean it's not exactly humming along so you have somebody that that can come in and be like hey look you know that out of production stuff this isn't even touching a production l other than your own um we can get the benefit on the stuff that's already been designed built and out the door these are 30-year assets you know 40 up to 40 if it's a if it's a
(1:24:05) freighter aircraft if they're 10 years old now here's another three decades of benefit that we're not even thinking of because we're only thinking of developing the new aircraft from say 2035 2040 onward um anyway I like that it's yes it's the upgrad and retrofit departments um in the oems um that can look to enhance the value of the inservice fleet um and companies like us are able to um enter that space unconstrained so so there's there's nothing proprietary about what we do we just we build a 3D model um by
(1:24:44) scanning an aircraft in a hanger anyone can do that um and so we're working with those shapes um with this new technology and we're able to to assess and analyze so much quicker than what an oem can do because we're not constrained by the the the thinking or the structural um uh or the infrastructure and sort of the structural way that companies are set up like Airbus and Boeing that there are multiple silos that you have to work across to get a an enhancement certified uh within an oem we can do it much
(1:25:22) quicker because we're solely focused on that opportunity without having to think about how this impacts all of the other um departments that are involved in this and so we can move much quicker and and I think oems uh should be um they should see that as an opportunity for them to enhance that the asset value yeah so I I um one of the things that kind of came up and I apologize for the background noise of course my landscapers are here um but the uh with the with the big fans that's right right next to my window it's awesome yeah my
(1:25:56) landscapers are here too yeah all right Courtney we'll see you later uh no but what what one of the things that that actually kind of struck me this week uh looking at kind of the the Dubai air show like orders and looking at the backlogs and everything else and it it kind of it it resonates in in kind of looking at that going you know the the smaller operators really are are going to be affected by their inability to not only new airplanes uh but in today's environment even getting used airplanes is a challenge I mean you
(1:26:27) know I've heard over and over again that you know as a as as a smaller operator if you're trying to get you know trying to go to the lorus to find lift if you don't have a relationship and you're trying to find an A320 or 737 800 good luck right it doesn't happen now that will change obviously over time um and I think that's where the things that you guys are doing help with that so ultimately it does go back to the bigger picture and that's my point is that ultimately you're you're not just kind
(1:26:54) of pushing uh you know the older assets that are less efficient to the smaller operators that can't put an order in because they can't get their airplane for 10 years right and so that it just kind of keeps the uh the environment flowing and the efficiencies is like getting better with everything which is I think that's the the big benefit yeah that it's the old supply and demand R right and and preco um the back the OEM backlogs were very strong um and now what's happened is with the lower
(1:27:25) production rates you've squeezed that sausage and things are just going to be delivering further and further out which means your ability to get a a new aircraft um in a space that you thought was um it was was previously available so you had something in say the 2028 2029 time frame that's just fulfilling now demand that was earlier 2 years earlier is now being pushed out to 29 so it just means you're going to have to wait longer to get hold of a new aircraft so the the trading of good used aircraft um I I see that being remaining
(1:28:00) strong for a period of time and it's it's certainly had um a a a boost from covid um as unfortunate as it is and and people are now investing in assets because a it's capacity and B it's reliable capacity too absolutely and I know so we're we're using up a lot of your time but I can't go through this podcast without uh asking um the the question current position aside because I think that would be unfair where through your career which we we didn't even make it past so Airbus then you went to
(1:28:36) bombarder then Airbus and then ADL right so ADL aside where what I guess what did you enjoy the most or or where did you where did you kind of find the most uh impact um or what what do you think of most was it kind of that British Airways um where everything came from is it kind of your work at at Airbus I'm just kind of curious where you kind of found the most enjoyment and he really wants you to say Bombardier no I don't actually it's a leading question isn't it grick you no I don't want you to say bombard I
(1:29:12) just want you to say whenever I was hanging out with you Cy that's that's really all I was looking actually that's exactly right that's what he's trying to get to favorite time was I work with you that's right it was it was it was the first time that the planets aligned in my life and I felt balance was when I found Coury wow oh I'm never going hear the end of it now can you say that slower directly into the microphone I know so it it it that question caught me is a little bit like asking me what my
(1:29:44) favorite music is because it's there's been there different chapters in my life that uh that I think have had um different levels of excitement and satisfaction um I think the common theme through every uh company I've worked for is I've been fortunate enough to have um worked with great people who are likeminded I think this industry is somewhat unique I may be naive in saying that but I think the the level of passion that flows in this industry is extraordinary um and you just have to show up to any industry event and people
(1:30:19) it it's a lot of people's lives that they're wrapped up in this um uh sort of this this draw and the Allure of this industry um it's it's in our blood and I've worked with a lot of very passionate people and I've loved that and I've also worked with in each chapter of my career I've been fortunate to have some really powerful mentors that I've been able to look up to and try and emulate and and had the benefit of their investment in me um in being able to help develop me as um an analyst
(1:30:58) as a salesperson as as a um head of sales as a head of commercial and I've just I've been able to to to grow with the benefit of people that have worked for me and people who have mentored me as well the the course of the my career in Aerospace has sort of has Eed from Regional space to um to to large OEM and back a little bit into the regional space with Bombardier and I will say the time that I spent in bombard and this is not because Courtney's here this is just real genuine heartfelt stuff the going
(1:31:36) to Bombardier reminded me and grounded me in a lot of ways to what I learned at British Aerospace which was you're the upstart here which means you have to create you have to think differently you have to find ways to deliver value that is not already delivered by Airbus and Boeing who have been in this space for a long period of time and you have to deploy tactics that will differentiate you um to the way that Airbus and Boeing go about their their campaigns and so to a large extent we were creating rather than just selling
(1:32:14) and coming up with new ways and and new arguments that that resonated with customers and new levels of flexibility and willingness to listen and to iterate and to enhance um and working with people like what one of the the people in my career who has had the one of the biggest Impressions on me is Rob Deer um Bombardier was was um was was an engineer who you could put on the front line with a customer um because he spoke with such passion and integrity about the program and about the industry and was able to attach himself to customer
(1:32:58) value and then deliver it to and he would he he would take responsibility for delivering value um from an engineering standpoint which is slightly different than working with the larger oems when you're typically fighting with the head of engineering to see a perhaps a quicker path to um enhance the product or to go that little extra mile um it felt as though we were less constrained in Bombardier and more Nimble too we had there's definitely quicker decision making quicker time to react to to customer request and it it
(1:33:39) had a a different Tempo where it was a little bit of the Band of Brothers which is okay we we're we're in this let's let's go take the big guys on and uh had a lot of fun doing that but going back to air bus was was great to um and and being in a more senior leadership position there and having the having the ability to uh be a coach as much as a leader and deal with that coaching um role in a very challenging environment called Co called covid when we were expecting people to work in different
(1:34:16) ways we were asking for people to operate in a crisis um at a time when they were home with their families and their families weren't going anywhere no one was traveling and the whole world changed and as a leader reorienting reorienting my focus not only on we need you to perform and deliver but you need to care about yourself too you need to think about your well-being and how you um how how you show up in your personal life and making sure that there's space to balance work and life and and that that's something that I really have
(1:34:55) gravitated to um and I think my my journey with cancer also gave me um sort of the personal insight to making sure that there is balance in in my life and other people's lives but people will work hard in this industry because they're passionate about it but you want people to live a full life too and you want them to live you know to enjoy the things that this industry can bring and uh as a coach now and and and as a mentor to some people I I try and instill that in them which is you Life's a One-Shot deal here so so so work hard
(1:35:30) and enjoy what you're doing and enjoy the space that you're in um and uh I find that very rewarding and fulfilling to be able to help people W with those aspects um because this industry is is is just fabulous to be in and uh I I love identifying people's strengths and and their beliefs as well and trying to uh to help them be um be a more confident uh person in their ability and watch them grow there's nothing more rewarding than than watching people grow um and become stronger leaders and and
(1:36:05) enjoy this career that I've been lucky to have I I like to pass on as much as I can because I've had great people that have helped me so you're not the first person to say that right and I and um I I say that because I hear that from people all the time and I'm like I don't think you know what you're saying like because you don't act that way but like for for anybody who doesn't know Chris Jones you need to just hang out with him like just get a cup of coffee get drink hang out for an
(1:36:40) hour because what what he just said and and I say this from a personal level because I you know I consider you one of my mentors and the just on the on the you know the the what you said about like coaching and and life and and and all that um I don't think I think people could easily write that off so hang out with Chris um that's lesson number one um but what I did want to say that the question that I was really angling for wasn't about Bombardier what I really want to know is how come there are all
(1:37:13) these people that came out of British Aerospace there were like this class of people that just came out like you don't know them necessarily as British Aerospace but you were all kind of in the same place at the same time um yeah yeah that that how how did you pull that off I know people refer to us as the ba Mafia because we did kind of like all graduate we graduated out of that class and then we just sort of ended up being uh um positioned in the industry but uh there is an uncanny um thread to that where where I've been fortunate to come
(1:37:49) across other people in Bae that are in great positions um and so we must have done something right back then because uh it it is uh I I've observed that too and I'm I'm very proud to be part of that graduating class whenever we did graduate very cool yeah yeah yeah and I'm wondering if it has to do with the uh as you said you guys had to fight for every campaign right you had to be creative and find the value in what you were doing and that right as as a as a learning exper right what else can you ask for right I
(1:38:23) mean because that it pushes you to figure out how to be the best you ultimately to try to get that deal to try to sell your product to try to you know so that yeah and I you know it's it's you talk about people and U you know you go to events and you you you know you talk to all these young people that are definitely passionate about Aviation and you just kind of it's great to see and you hope that they don't lose it because it's just kind of like they go into it and they're like so excited
(1:38:48) and you hope that there's nobody there to push them down because they're you know pushing them to to work 20 hour days or or right that just kind of makes them go ah you know what I'm done with this right because it's kind of like that you're right that passion that we have in our in all of our guests that we talk to right and it's just that's what makes it tremend that's why I love this industry it's because of that passion and so you know it's I think it's because of people like you that
(1:39:13) ultimately people that work for you or work with you see that passion right and they they get excited about it and so they get passionate and so it's all great it's all great but uh we we've obviously yeah it's been uh we've taken way too much of your time today um but this this has been tremendous um it's such a fun conversation to have with you and and hearing about everything that you've done I know I didn't I didn't believe him I really didn't you know go he goes he has a British accent how
(1:39:43) interesting could he really be he might just be right on one thing yeah don't don't tell him that don't tell him that uh he might be right yeah that's not a good thing so but uh but look we we do appreciate it um you know it's you know that's why that's why we decided to to do time on wi is because we wanted to talk to people that are passionate about what they do and it comes across and so this is you know this is just fun for us and so we appreciate it thank you both it's been uh it's been a real pleasure I
(1:40:15) I really appreciate the questions um the chance to share my thoughts and um I I hope that people enjoy this podcast and keep doing what you're doing I mean just just bringing um people's personalities and Industry uh passion to life and you you're you're enabling people to tap into um to leaders who have had um you successful careers as as you both have and it's it's uh that that's how we get this out right that's how we build the energy and enthusiasm for for for the Next Generation who are um in the
(1:40:47) industry or looking to get into the industry um it's our job to pull people along and and do it with encouragement and support and uh allow them to flourish uh that that will continue to uh to reinvent what we enjoy doing so thank you very much I appreciate [Music] it I shouldn't say this especially when we're recording but yeah you were right oh that hurts gosh just like this sharp pain right in my side I know I could feel what that I could feel the pain I having a heart attack is it a panic attack that's what it
(1:41:31) is what happens when you agree with me flying squirrel you compare me to a flying squirrel and a nut not a flying squirrel a blind squirrel BL that one right a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while well this is time on Wing right so he could say that you know flying squirrel does a flying blind squirrel find a nut like I don't know yeah flying squirrels are not that bright otherwise they'd be Financial squirrels they be do you edit this yeah is yeah wait I'm sorry Garrick's on yes I take hours hours
(1:42:16) Chris I don't know what happened why you didn't just tuck tail and run when you realize how just totally screwed up I am but you powered through it right hey you know I just after a while when you get used to it I mean you know you say some decent stuff every once in a while so it's worth it fly flying squirrel flying squirrel